My power needs management!

So... I wasn't really thinking about audio and power needs when I wired my basement. All my outlets are on one 15A circuit. The electrical box is on the opposite side of the basement, but fortunately, the ceiling is still only half finished, so I should be able to pull a wire across for a dedicated outlet behind my cabinet, in addition to the shared outlet from the existing circuit. I'm planning a single 12 gauge run with a 20A breaker. The number of things needing to be plugged in seems to have grown beyond what my simple mind had considered...

1. TV
2. ‎‎AVR
3. ‎‎Integrated amp
4. ‎Subwoofer
5. ‎‎Squeezebox Touch power supply
6. DAC (yet to buy)
7. ‎Roku box
8. ‎PlayStation
9. ‎Ethernet switch
10. Probably something else I can't think of now
11. Probably another something else I can't think of now

What things would you suggest I put on the new "dedicated" circuit, and which should I leave on the existing circuit?

Also, what things benefit the most from power conditioning? Everything?

I must admit that I haven't often cared too much about surge protection. We've been here over 18 years and I've never had a situation that's made me think I needed it. More often than not, I've only used cheaper power strips with surge protection as a convenience, not for protection. I do, however, have my family room system running through a Panamax PM8-EX surge protector, and my sunroom HT goes through a Monster HTS 3600 MkII power conditioner, except the amp, which has always gone straight into the wall. For the basement system, I want to do it right, or at least righter... So for now, it'll just be getting that additional line run with probably two outlets in a double box at the end. Nothing fancy. Some power cord upgrades will be next, but later.

Thoughts? Suggestions?
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Comments

  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
    1. I have admitted that I am powerless over my emotions, that my life had become unmanageable.
    2. Came to believe that a Power greater than myself could restore me to sanity.
    3. Gave up because of number 2.
  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    I would suggest plugging everything except the amp and subwoofer into a power conditioner, and use the 15 amp circuit for this.

    The sub and amp, I would plug directly into the 20 amp receptacles, or into a device designed for high current applications. Shuntaya's Amp-1 would be an example.

    May want to consider another 20 amp run or 3. Might as well do it while it's easily accessible, and not worry about it in the future.

    Available and not being used is better than I need more later on.
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    afterburnt wrote: »
    1. I have admitted that I am powerless over my emotions, that my life had become unmanageable.
    2. Came to believe that a Power greater than myself could restore me to sanity.
    3. Gave up because of number 2.
    We're all insane.
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    Don't exceed 1800w on the 15A line or 2400w on the 20A... The nice thing about this is that since the voltage remains constant, watts all remain the same as they directly correlate to Amps.
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    rpf65 wrote: »
    I would suggest plugging everything except the amp and subwoofer into a power conditioner, and use the 15 amp circuit for this.

    The sub and amp, I would plug directly into the 20 amp receptacles, or into a device designed for high current applications. Shuntaya's Amp-1 would be an example.

    May want to consider another 20 amp run or 3. Might as well do it while it's easily accessible, and not worry about it in the future.

    Available and not being used is better than I need more later on.
    I get what you're saying, but there won't be anything significant to follow. I'm happy building this as an end game system for me. So, the sub and the amp on the dedicated line. Kind of what my gut was telling me.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    edited April 2018
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Don't exceed 1800w on the 15A line or 2400w on the 20A... The nice thing about this is that since the voltage remains constant, watts all remain the same as they directly correlate to Amps.

    well, kind of -- other than that little feature of AC-powered devices called Power Factor.

    https://www.rapidtables.com/electric/Power_Factor.html

    The PF of most hifi equipment operating at steady state, I think, is pretty close to unity -- but not every component on a line necessarily has a PF of identically 1 (one). Thus, E*I (voltage times current) isn't necessarily identically equal to P (power, in watts).

    Good ol' inductive & capacitive reactance -- it's part of what makes this stuff so much fun.
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    Oh, now yo just had to bring trig into the mess :#:p

    Can't we just keep it simple? :D
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Don't exceed 1800w on the 15A line or 2400w on the 20A... The nice thing about this is that since the voltage remains constant, watts all remain the same as they directly correlate to Amps.
    Just looked in some manuals and the top four already have me over 1200W. Seems like the second circuit is a must. Wish I'd planned this better.

    1. TV - 148W
    2. ‎‎AVR - 250W
    3. ‎‎Integrated amp - 220W
    4. ‎Subwoofer - 600W
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Oh, now yo just had to bring trig into the mess :#:p

    Can't we just keep it simple? :D
    Yeah, @mhardy6647, can I just look at your answers? ;)
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    Oh, a Kill-A-Watt will measure "real" power and E*I (volt-amperes), compare the two and calculate (and display) Power Factor.

    IMO a Kill-A-Watt is a handy little gizmo to have around for many different reasons.

    ai396h0ukzl3.png
    http://www.p3international.com/products/energy-savers.html
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    IMO a Kill-A-Watt is a handy little gizmo to have around for many different reasons.
    Oh yeah? Name a couple, because I'm just a click away from having one of these new toys delivered here in 2 days. B)
  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    Looks like you should already consider a second 20 amp circuit.

    Personally I ran 4 20 amp circuits for my system. Only one duplex plug on each circuit. Currently using 3 of them: amp on one, sub on second, and AVR/BD/TV through power conditioner on third.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    edited April 2018
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    IMO a Kill-A-Watt is a handy little gizmo to have around for many different reasons.
    Oh yeah? Name a couple, because I'm just a click away from having one of these new toys delivered here in 2 days. B)

    Well, you can measure power consumption of a component. Any component. Or a whole slew of things (e.g., plugged into a power strip). For example, two tube monoblocks -- are they the same? One may be mis-biased and using more power. A noninvasive way to test (handy for us DIY morons who build stuff that doesn't always work quite as intended!). I also use 'em when bringing up antique (vacuum tube) gear on a Variac to measure current draw and/or power consumption.

    You can measure line voltage and frequency.
    You can measure -- derp -- power factor.
    You can enter your cost of electricity per kW-hr and the gizmo will read out the
    cost of operating any given component.

    I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    You're probably right! Maybe I can do two.
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    Ed keep in mind that the numbers you have are peak numbers. None of the components listed run like that steady state. The closest would be the tv, and the furthest would likely be the sub.
  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 10,042
    The thing is unless you are running constant 10Hz sine waves through your stereo your AVR, Integrated, and Subwoofer aren't going to be pulling anything close to that much power.
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
    What if you hit the Power Ball? Then you will wish you had four 20 amp circuits!
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    afterburnt wrote: »
    What if you hit the Power Ball? Then you will wish you had four 20 amp circuits!
    You get a 20 amp circuit! YOU get a 20 amp circuit!
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    IMO a Kill-A-Watt is a handy little gizmo to have around for many different reasons.
    Oh yeah? Name a couple, because I'm just a click away from having one of these new toys delivered here in 2 days. B)

    Well, you can measure power consumption of a component. Any component. Or a whole slew of things (e.g., plugged into a power strip). For example, two tube monoblocks -- are they the same? One may be mis-biased and using more power. A noninvasive way to test (handy for us DIY morons who build stuff that doesn't always work quite as intended!). I also use 'em when bringing up antique (vacuum tube) gear on a Variac to measure current draw and/or power consumption.

    You can measure line voltage and frequency.
    You can measure -- derp -- power factor.
    You can enter your cost of electricity per kW-hr and the gizmo will read out the
    cost of operating any given component.

    I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

    Sold! Do you get commission?
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    Yeah, of course I do!

    You can see how much (how little) they cost -- and you'll know why I drive a beat-up old Toyota instead of a Bentley.

    :)
  • delkal
    delkal Posts: 764
    mdaudioguy wrote: »
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Don't exceed 1800w on the 15A line or 2400w on the 20A... The nice thing about this is that since the voltage remains constant, watts all remain the same as they directly correlate to Amps.
    Just looked in some manuals and the top four already have me over 1200W. Seems like the second circuit is a must. Wish I'd planned this better.

    1. TV - 148W
    2. ‎‎AVR - 250W
    3. ‎‎Integrated amp - 220W
    4. ‎Subwoofer - 600W

    There is no way you will get close to drawing 1200 watts with real world playing. Do you often turn everything in your system to Max at the same time? Even then you will need to hit a high peak in the music to instantaneously draw all the watts. Before the breaker even thinks about tripping you will have other major problems with your speakers clipping, amp overheating, and your ears bleeding.

    For most listening you are only using a tiny fraction of what your gear is rated at.

    But go ahead and put in a 20 amp line. Its not that hard if you have access.
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,517
    edited April 2018
    I have the following items in my system downstairs:

    APC H15 - IEC
    Denon X4100w - IEC
    AC Infinity S8 (cooling fan for Denon) - 12v wallwart
    Squeezebox Classic - 12v wallwart
    B&K 200.5 - IEC
    AC Infinity S8 (cooling fan for B&K) - 12v wallwart
    Linksys 8 port switch - 12v wallwart
    Dish TV Receiver - 12v wallwart
    Xbox One - IEC
    Crown XLS2000 - IEC
    Crown XLS2000 - IEC
    MiniDSP 2x4 - IEC
    RetroPi gaming system - 12v wallwart
    Panasonic 60" Plasma - IEC

    When running my dedicated lines @lightman1 and I decided to do 3 20 amp circuits in one shot. Took longer, he cursed me early, often (and still does :wink:) but it made things super easy since I shouldn't ever need more lol. Here is how we broke my stuff out:

    Circuit 1 (Source gear)
    -Everything connected to APC H15 which is:
    --Denon X4100w - used as a pre-amp only
    --AC Infinity S8 (cooling fan for Denon)
    --Squeezebox Classic
    --AC Infinity S8 (cooling fan for B&K)
    --Linksys 8 port switch
    --Dish TV Receiver
    --Xbox One
    --MiniDSP 2x4
    --RetroPi gaming system
    --Panasonic 60" Plasma

    Circuit 2
    -B&K 200.5 - powers all my speakers forever

    Circuit 3
    -Crown XLS2000 - front subs
    -Crown XLS2000 - rear subs

    The second we kicked the power back on after installing them I noticed 3 things:

    1. My plasma seems to have a MUCH better picture (brighter, better contrast, darker blacks). I attribute this to having more current available since it wasn't sharing with other current hog stuff
    2. My B&K seemed to come alive and hold its own better on transients. Power for days
    3. My Crown amps made my subs beg for mercy much better.

    Would I run more than 3. Probably not. I'm content that if I need more connections for source gear that the 1st circuit can provide the wattage with no problem.

    If I get more amps, I'd likely either run em on the B&K circuit (if they are for main speakers), or the Crown circuit (if they are for subs).

    I'd also suggest installing a whole home surge protector AT THE PANEL. Then you dont need to stress about plugging your stuff direct into the wall.... ANYWHERE in the house.

    I run my amps direct to the wall outlets (PS Audio somethings).

    I also was then able to justify upgrading all IEC cables to PS Audio AC-3's.

    So if you can, I'd run another 2 circuits and you'd be good.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    Thanks @EndersShadow, for the detailed reply!
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    edited April 2018
    Been meaning to post this since the first time I read the thread title:
    i4qndqiobisq.jpg

    Edit: points if you know what this is without looking it up.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    The thread title made me think of a Warren Zevon song -- but the title isn't Vanilla-friendly.

  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Yeah, of course I do!

    You can see how much (how little) they cost -- and you'll know why I drive a beat-up old Toyota instead of a Bentley.

    :)
    Got my new toy yesterday. Haven't killed any watts yet, however. Evidently, my neighbors in Eldersburg have been happy with theirs!
    1fgw33ezx4mg.jpg
  • sgmsmg
    sgmsmg Posts: 542
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Been meaning to post this since the first time I read the thread title:
    i4qndqiobisq.jpg

    Edit: points if you know what this is without looking it up.

    He-Man’s sword?
    2 Channel
    Pre:Bryston BP173
    Amp:Bryston 14B3
    Speakers: Golden Ear Triton Reference
    Source: Oppo UDP-205, Bryston BDA-3, Bryston BDP-3, Bryston BCD-3, Apple TV, Amazon Fire
    Cables: Wireworld Gold Eclipse 7 Speaker, Wireworld Gold Eclipse 7 XLR, AQ Diamond USB/HDMI
    Power: PS Audio P10 Regenerator, AC12, AC10 and AC5 Cables
    Display: Sony XBR65Z9F

    Home Theater
    Pre: Anthem AVM90/JBL SDP-55
    Amps: Parasound A31, A51x2
    Speakers: Polk LSiM 707 (FL/FR), Polk LSiM706 (Center), LSiM 703 (SL/SR/SBL/SBR), Polk 900-LS (Atmos)
    Subwoofers: SVS SB16 x 4
    Source: Oppo UDP-205, Apple TV, Amazon Fire
    Cables: AQ Meteor/Rocket 88, AQ Niagara/Sky
    Power: Torus AVR20, Shunyata Denali, Shunyata Delta, Cullen, PangeaAC9SE Cables
    Display: Sony XBR85Z9G
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    edited April 2018
    sgmsmg wrote: »
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Been meaning to post this since the first time I read the thread title:
    i4qndqiobisq.jpg

    Edit: points if you know what this is without looking it up.

    He-Man’s sword?

    He!
    Has!
    the Power!!!


    *Now let's see how well you "manage" it... :#


    See where I went? :p
  • mdaudioguy
    mdaudioguy Posts: 5,165
    sgmsmg wrote: »
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Been meaning to post this since the first time I read the thread title:
    i4qndqiobisq.jpg

    Edit: points if you know what this is without looking it up.

    He-Man’s sword?
    Doesn't this belong in that other thread??
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    edited April 2018
    Lol, no, well maybe, but the thought I my head happened before the start of that other thread.

    *Just confirmed I posted a day ahead of it too.