50 watt amp with 5% distortion.........only $149,000. Interested?

2

Comments

  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    I'm saying that it shouldn't, not that it doesn't.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,704
    Ok, but it is a point without any merit unless one has the exact same equipment in the exact same room as it was recorded/mastered in.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    DSkip wrote: »
    Good recordings get closer but a solid system can still give you some of that with mediocre studio recordings.

    This is why I like this forum! Skip please throw some tutelage at me, if you would. 2.5 years working in live sound and 3 years at Berklee has me a bit biased in a way.
  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,862
    DSkip wrote: »
    The objective of hifi for me is not to reproduce what the engineer recorded. It's to capture the magic of the performance. I'll throw detail out the window if it means I can hear the sincerity of the singers lyrics as she sings them. If I wanted a truthful system I'd get monitors in near field and be done. Reproducing the sound has many layers to it though and monitors don't cover the entire spectrum.

    You'll never get completely there regardless, but when your system reaches a certain level, even bad recordings are listenable and dare I say enjoyable. At this point, great recordings are like sitting in a cafe listening to them perform 10 feet in front of you.

    Rosso had ruined every other speaker for me and I hate admitting that. I find value in other speakers but they'll never be my huckleberry. I skyped with Francesco a few days ago and asked him how he approaches speaker design. He likened it to a motorcycle trip. Sometimes you don't know where you are going, but you enjoy the ride and take in everything on the journey. When you get to where you are going, you know you have arrived. It's evident in his speakers that he enjoys that journey and definitely knows when he has arrived.

    My visit to New Orleans keyed me into a better term and it's 'liveness'. Weird term but it's about the organic and natural presentation that makes the music feel intimate and real as opposed to a reproduction. This is what I seek and if you get that right, so many songs become more than simply a recording.

    that's why back in the 80's i fell in love with the original klipsich (spelling) speakers.
    you didn't listen for the usual audiophile items such as soundstage, imaging and the like, it was just fun, the real life sound and dynamics just made you want to dance.
    of course as i got older and listened to a wider range of music and different systems.

    i started to listen for the "audiophile" aspects of the sound.
    like going from thunderbird/md 20/20 to a fine merlot :)
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,505
    I think it’s essiest to accept that no component will be direct connect from one end to the next. You will never get to the source.
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    Joey_V wrote: »
    I think it’s essiest to accept that no component will be direct connect from one end to the next. You will never get to the source.

    I accept that completely (I have to, given what I was taught about electrical theory, acoustic engineering and physics) but if it's about getting to the sensation or emotive force, then why bother with specs at all? There must be truth of the source at some point.
  • codycatalist
    codycatalist Posts: 2,662
    DSkip wrote: »
    The objective of hifi for me is not to reproduce what the engineer recorded. It's to capture the magic of the performance. I'll throw detail out the window if it means I can hear the sincerity of the singers lyrics as she sings them.

    I don't think I have read a more truthful statement on this forum that applies to me as much as this.
    Just a dude doing dude-ly things

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  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    DSkip wrote: »
    They aren't exclusive points. There is more to it than just specs.

    And there's the Crux of it all. At what point do they no longer hold significance? We use them as a benchmark and yet 2 units of identical spec can be miles apart in sound and price.

    (I know this looks argumentative, but think of it as an exercise in approach).
  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,306
    ...but does it hum. That is the question.
    I disabled signatures.
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,557
    Reported for douchebaggery.
    msg wrote: »
    ...but does it hum. That is the question.

  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,862
    i read years ago you can take two identical pieces of equipment off the assembly line and the two will sound different. so you can't go by specs, we learned in the 80's when we had the receiver wars of who can get the most watts and lowest distortion numbers. they all sounded like crap!
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,505
    The main reason they sound different is that measurements are not encompassing... meaning they don’t measure everything an amp does. When the impedance is variable, a similarly measuring amp will no longer measure similarly.

    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    edited March 2018
    For my money -- if you want music that sounds real; like real, flesh and blood people singing and playing real musical instruments (even electronic ones!)... SET and high-sensitivity loudspeakers (which may or may not involve horns) will get you there the best for the $ invested.

    Not that you can't get there other ways - but that's the way I've found that's best for me.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    I didn't.

    For me, though, the magic (again, dollar for dollar) is when the loudspeakers are capable of real dynamics. The Frankenaltecs here can do that, in spades.

  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    Newbie trying to keep up. Taking notes. :smile:
    1hrfg0kaoswk.png
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    DSkip wrote: »
    Don't discount high powered SE and average sensitivity speakers. To me SE is the key. Some solid state gets close and some push pull gets closer, but none of them reach SE. YMMV.

    Keepin up! :smile:
    https://www.passlabs.com/press/single-ended-class
    jre6ucd49rli.png
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,306
    rePORted for being db enough to use the term db.
    Clipdat wrote: »
    Reported for douchebaggery.
    msg wrote: »
    ...but does it hum. That is the question.
    I disabled signatures.
  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    I say hog wash. I’ve heard some really $$$$ systems and the sound was very different but better? its subjective. Does more $$$$ really = better sound? Like cables, audio, digital, speaker or power, does it really make it better? Or is it only because you paid $$$ that psychoacousticly you think it does, like that phantom limb pushing you to never be satisfied no matter how good it sounds because you think something better is around the corner?
    • Living Room Music-2.0 Polk Legend L800 | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Air USB to DAC
    • Media Room Ht-7.2.6/13.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x4], height LSiM703 [x6], HSU VTF-15H MK2 Dual | Marantz AV8805A | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Sony UBP-X800 | AppleTV 4K | JVC RS2100
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    • Daughter's Bedroom 1-2.0 TBD Martin Logan Forte
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    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Topping DX7s | Sansui FR-1080 | TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,124
    When you start playing in the realm of systems over $50k plus speakers, it all starts with "THE SPEAKERS". Everything behind the speakers follows the law of diminishing returns. The tech is not really that different on the insides $30k...$50k amp vs $100k amp.

    BUT...If I could afford to drop a million dollars into a room and not blink an eye, and enjoyed doing it.....yeah I would WTH not
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

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  • mpitogo
    mpitogo Posts: 475
    edited March 2018
    Speakers, you’ve got me on that as it’s the laws of physics and I agree full dynamic range will take a considerable amount engineering. And speaker to speaker there are vast differences in sound where measurements can only go so far.

    I’m probably just as bad of a hypocrite, I’m listening to Phish Fuego Vinyl Side B.
    • Living Room Music-2.0 Polk Legend L800 | McIntosh C70 | McIntosh MA5200 (Treble) | McIntosh MC452 (Bass) | Sublimeacoustic K231 Active xover | Denon DP-2500A | Denafrips Ares II | Belkin Soundform Connect | iPad Air USB to DAC
    • Media Room Ht-7.2.6/13.1 (Atmos/Auro-3D) Polk LSiM707, LSiM706c, LSiM702 F/X [x4], height LSiM703 [x6], HSU VTF-15H MK2 Dual | Marantz AV8805A | Rotel RB-1590 (L/R) | Appollon NC500 11ch | Sony UBP-X800 | AppleTV 4K | JVC RS2100
    • Game Room-5.1 Polk LSi25, LSiC, LSiF/X | Marantz SR7009 | AppleTV 4K | Xbox One S | Sony PS2, PS3 | Nintendo Wii | Gaming PC | Sony 75" LCD
    • Master Bedroom Music-2.0 Totem Hawk | Marantz PM-10 | Marantz SA-10 | SONY PS-HX500
    • Office-2.0 Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX, DSW microPRO3000 | Rotel RA-1570 | Marantz HD-CD1
    • Daughter's Bedroom 1-2.0 TBD Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 2-2.0 Klipsch RP-600M | Martin Logan Forte
    • Guest Room 3-3.0 Martin Logan Motion 40, 50XT | Onkyo TX-SR705 | Apple TV | Samsung 55" TV
    • Guest Room 4-2.0 QAcoustics 3030i | Sansui AU-6900 | Topping DX7s | Sansui FR-1080 | TV
    • Maintenance: Pro-Ject VC-S Record Cleaning Machine
  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,862
    below is the mastersound published specs on my compact 845 integrated.
    tell me how it sounds? there are some that will not consider a piece of equipment if extensive specs are not shown.

    SPECIFICATIONS:

    Single Ended in Class "A"

    Power
    2 x 30 Watt

    Finals tubes
    2 x 845

    Pre-drivers tubes
    2 x ECC802

    Drivers tubes
    2 x 6SN7 GT

    Input impedance
    50K OHM

    Inputs
    3 x Line + 1 Direct

    Output transformer
    MASTERSOUND

    Load impedance
    4 – 8 Ohm

    Negative feedback
    0 dB

    Volume
    with remote control

    Bandwidth
    8 Hz / 40 kHz – 0dB

    Dimensions
    45 x 43 x 27 cm. (17.7 x 16.9 x 10.6 in)

    Weight
    34 Kg. (75 lbs)

    Warranty
    5 years (excluding tubes)
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Puritan PSM156
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    marvda1 wrote: »
    below is the mastersound published specs on my compact 845 integrated.
    tell me how it sounds? there are some that will not consider a piece of equipment if extensive specs are not shown.
    ...

    Such people -- are fools.

    ;)

    Well, they're not very open minded -- or maybe they're just not very right brained.

    Oh, it is possible to make high-ish powered SET amplifiers with only one output device per channel. The trick is to use output triodes that were developed for RF amplifiers (AM transmitters). Those can go up to 50 thousand watts -- but they're generally not very practical for home audio -- and the plate voltages involved are spectacular. :)

    http://www.modestoradiomuseum.org/border stations geo.html


  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    Isn't "plate voltage" when a restaurant serves you an electric eel?
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    @mhardy6647 I read the link and subsection on the transmittersand the tubes used. I'm familiar with "soiled state" amp topology and how they work, but I'm still fuzzy on tubes and their roll within the circuit (or more how exactly they operate) and the PS's role in their operation. Got any good links for that info? (If I go full on tube junkie because of this rabbit hole, I'm blaming you ;) )
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    edited March 2018
    Tubes are way simpler to understand than transistors. OK -- to methey're way easier to understand. They're also generally amenable to producing high performance via much simpler circuits (in the analog domain!) and much more forgiving of operation under "less than optimal" conditions than are transistors. Transistors are finicky little gizmos, way more susceptible to static discharge or power spikes than vacuum tubes, e.g.

    How does a vacuum tube work, you say? Basically, electrons are boiled off of the cathode into a vacuum. They're attracted to a positively charged plate (a/k/a "anode"). If you just have a tube with those two elements (cathode and plate), you've made a diode, which can be used to "rectify" AC to DC -- just like a solid state diode.

    The magic, as Lee DeForest (and probably others) figured out, is that you can intersperse a metal grid between the cathode and the plate. Now, imagine that you apply an "alternating current" (AC) voltage, one that swings between positive and negative, onto that grid*. The grid now acts variably to gate the flow of those electrons from cathode to plate as the signal applied to the grid varies. A small signal applied to the grid essentially gets magnified by the flow of all those electrons from cathode to plate -- and thus is a triode a signal amplifier.

    Here's my favorite primer on vacuum tubes for absolute starters.
    http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf

    I'll offer a few more "reading opportunities" anon and under separate cover, too! :)

    HTH as they say.

    ______________________
    * Where does that AC signal on the grid come from? A "source". That source could be, e.g., a microphone (which 'transduces' sound pressure waves into a small AC voltage and current) or a phonograph "pickup" (an old-time crystal phono cartridge can drive a power amplifier tube directly!).
    Post edited by mhardy6647 on
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    Ok thats a lot easier to grasp except for how the traveling electrons amplify the source since they travel in DC, yet the amplified signal is in AC... and with only one tube per channel. I need to get my read on. It's the SET part that's throwing me.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    edited March 2018
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Ok thats a lot easier to grasp except for how the traveling electrons amplify the source since they travel in DC, yet the amplified signal is in AC... and with only one tube per channel. I need to get my read on. It's the SET part that's throwing me.

    The Force is strong with this one. :)

    A few seconds' reflection occasioned by what your wrote will probably lead you to exclaim, "oh! Now I know why there's bias!"

    ... not the sociological kind or the ABX testing kind ;)
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    edited March 2018
    The SET circuit can be as simple as an amplifier can be. A class A preamp stage is (usually, though not always) a SET voltage amplifier. A low voltage (low power) signal comes in to the grid of a triode (e.g., one section of a 12AT7 or one section of a 6SN7), and a high voltage signal just like it (still low power) comes out.

    Now, that high voltage signal can be applied to the grid of a power amplifier triode to generate a high voltage and high power signal. That signal is applied to the relatively high impedance primary winding of an output transformer, and that signal is inductively coupled to the secondary winding of the output transfomer, which results in a signal of appropriate voltage to drive a low impedance load... heh, heh, heh, that's be Mr. Voice Coil. :)

    The DC voltages in the SET amplifier circuits do the work -- they're removed from the final product by coupling capacitors (e.g., between the voltage amplifier and the power triode) or by the magic of the output transformer. That DC plate voltage flows through the primary winding all of the time (heats it up, and makes it an electromagnet!) but, since it's DC, it doesn't make it to the secondary winding -- only the signal (music) does.

    "Any suitably advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -
    Arthur C. Clarke
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    edited March 2018
    The crystal ball is looking less hazy...

    Wiki is helping. Seems like you're referencing a SET with a parafeed output transformer stage?
    Post edited by FestYboy on
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,557
    Translation: It sounds really really good.
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    The SET circuit can be as simple as an amplifier can be. A class A preamp stage is (usually, though not always) a SET voltage amplifier. A low voltage (low power) signal comes in to the grid of a triode (e.g., one section of a 12AT7 or one section of a 6SN7), and a high voltage signal just like it (still low power) comes out.

    Now, that high voltage signal can be applied to the grid of a power amplifier triode to generate a high voltage and high power signal. That signal is applied to the relatively high impedance primary winding of an output transformer, and that signal is inductively coupled to the secondary winding of the output transfomer, which results in a signal of appropriate voltage to drive a low impedance load... heh, heh, heh, that's be Mr. Voice Coil. :)

    The DC voltages in the SET amplifier circuits do the work -- they're removed from the final product by coupling capacitors (e.g., between the voltage amplifier and the power triode) or by the magic of the output transformer. That DC plate voltage flows through the primary winding all of the time (heats it up, and makes it an electromagnet!) but, since it's DC, it doesn't make it to the secondary winding -- only the signal (music) does.

    "Any suitably advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -
    Arthur C. Clarke