Small yet Mighty. The tale of the 12's

EndersShadow
EndersShadow Posts: 17,517
Foreword:

I'm a guy who likes to go into detail. The devil and the beauty is in the details, small and large. The backstory in my mind is always important as it sets the stage for what's to come and to provide insight into why certain choices were made. This thread will, like all my others, be a slow burn. My builds are intentional. They progress slowly, after much internal angst and debate, complicated by my insane need to account for all variables, and over-complicate things .

Chapter 1: The Quest is born, and a Champion emerges from the forge!


The Quest

I love BASS.

My wife is not a Basshead. If you look at the threads I've posted over the years, you will see I've thrown just about EVERY idea at the wall trying to emulate most of you guys. None stuck……….


In late October of 2017, we visited my good friend in Iowa (@ZLTFUL). He's a fellow bass nut, and we get along great. He was using 3 SVS cylinder subs with his JTR Triple 8's. While visiting my wife commented that she LIKED (or could tolerate more) the SVS cylinders. Wasting no time, I got her to agree to allow me to copy his layout, and keep the nearfield sub that is hidden behind our sectional. In return I had to sell my UM18 first, and self-fund the build. A deal was made. The QUEST HAD BEGUN!

A CHAMPION IS FORGED

I had acquired 2 backup Infinity's for my nearfield sub. I researched the SVS PC-12NSD to get its dimensions and port tuning. I then attempted to emulate it in WinISD using the Infinity 1260/1262.

The Infinity modeled well in a 16" in diameter 32" tall Sonotube ported to about 19 Hz. Port velocity was in check, with decent SPL. The ports fit, barely, but it would work.

All that was left was to buy another driver. Unfortunately for me, I was BEYOND LATE to the Infinity party. The drivers were long since out of stock, so I had to find one on the interwebz. They showed up on eBay, but they were around 100 bucks or more after shipping. I decided to keep waiting.

I started looking for other options and remembered the JBL CS1214. The ONLY issue was, after throwing it into WinISD, the drivers only modeled close in a SEALED box. SPL response was ALMOST identical with the JBL having more power handling. In a ported box the JBL looked HORRIBLE. It needed a box that was 2x the size of the one for the Infinity. So I pushed it aside and kept looking for Infinity drivers waiting for a bargain.

All your Subz belong to us!

It's now a week or two before Black Friday 2017. My UM18 had sold, and I was sitting on money waiting for the right Infinity to buy. I had my parts list ready to buy for the ported Sonotubes, but was waiting till I had my last sub in hand.

Someone posted the JBL CX1200 was on sale for 45 bucks at BestBuy on Black Friday. The T/S parameters were identical to the CS1214. Knowing the CX1200 was the "updated" CS1214, I wondered what the CS1214 was going for now. A quick google search turned up the fact that Sonic Electronix had them on closeout for 25 DOLLARS….. INCLUDING SHIPPING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Consulting WinISD showed that a dual opposed 1214 build would make things simpler, and not lose too much SPL wise. I could ignore worries about port chuffing, I could add a shelf filter to boost response. This became a very viable option. It helped that one CS1214 wasn't too much more than the cost of the ports for each build. And they were NEW!

I am a horrible person. Ryan will openly tell you this. Owning that fact, I told no one but my closest friends the deal I'd found, wanting to keep it all to myself. Like Gollum with the one ring. Mine, my own…. My precioussssssss


The deal I was getting started to consume me.

I started with 6 drivers in my cart. This was the minmum I needed to finish 3 DO Sonotubes. The JBL's and Infinity's would work together, so no need to go overboard


...................……..But I got sub drunk.


6 became 8, so I'd have 2 extras. Consumed by greed, 8 became 12 (so I could replace the 1260's and be using all JBLs). My cart suddenly showed 12 items.



Then I did the unthinkable. My finger of its own accord moved before my brain even registered. "Submit"


Looking at my invoice, I felt dirty.


I pictured the face of the stock boy readying my order, seeing what I'd bought, and then how little it had cost me. His face turning to a grimmace seeing their shipping costs. After shipping, I doubt they made a dime


I thought that was the end.


I was wrong.


A few days pass and I am still consumed by the need to buy more of these drivers. It was only compounded by my fear I didn't have enough extras.

To the Internet! By now, word of the deal had spread and Sonic Electronix was sold out (I'd like to think because I bought them out ).


That left Amazon, where they were 65 bucks new, no longer a screaming deal. I monitored the site, and a day later two drivers showed in their "Amazon Warehouse Deals" (I think thats what its called). These were Amazon returns that still worked but had damage to the packaging, or the person just didn’t want them. 32 bucks a pop. I could stomach that.

Ordered. They were mine. My total was now up to 14 subs . But the beast inside me was not yet appeased.

I stumbled across a post from someone I know on AVSForum he had 2 drivers from testing, in factory boxes, he was selling. The post was stale, but I never saw any follow-up. I was going to be in Chicago for some SDA's, and may as well add 2 more subs to my collection. A few weeks later the deal was done and I was on my way home with an additional 2.

My bloodlust ended. With 16 drivers, there was no more room at the inn. I had already moved 8 of them to a friend's house for him to help me build the Sonotubes. That still left me with 8 at the house.


It was time to start actually getting ready to build something .
"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)

Comments

  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,517
    Chapter 2: The Organ Donor

    I now faced a dilemma. Each Sonotube contained 2 subs. My other nearfield sub had 4 drivers. I was going to have trouble level matching my rear subs. Deciding to use 4 drivers, I now needed a new design for this back sub. But it needed to be the "right" design first time around.

    Putting 2 Sonotubes behind my recliner was out of the question. Building a dual opposed box presented layout problems, and resulted in very low WAF. A downward firing fake "hope chest" would be too long for the space. Dual opposed Up/Down also had no WAF. Front/Back dual opposed would likely shake my surrounds and any pictures off the wall. I could go with 2 front firing, 2 downfiring, but that meant really tall legs, which likely wouldn't work. I was stuck.

    I looked at any sub build I could find, hoping for inspiration. I lost myself in Infinite Baffle, Push/Pull, and all manner of unique layouts. I saw a guitar speaker with 4 front firing 10's. It was ugly as sin, but it wasn't that big. Light shone down from heaven. This was it. 4 drivers front firing, stacked in 2 rows of 2 each, butted up against the wall. It was basically a compact version of my nearfield sub.

    Whatever I did, it needed high WAF. I don’t have woodworking skills, and good quality wood can get pricey. So I started looking for a pretty "shell" to build my sub inside.

    I decided to commit a AUDIOPHILE SIN (dont disown me @mhardy6647 ) and take a vintage piece of audio equipment and convert it into a sub. With much shame, I looked at antique radios, consoles and all manner of things. Then it happened.

    I saw an ad for something the seller called a "Reverb" box. I had no idea what it was but it looked pretty, and had 4 10" drivers inside of it and a make/model number of Hammond PR something. Down the Google rabbit hole I went. I finally locked in on "The One". A Hammond PR-40 Tone cabinet.

    The Hammond PR-40 is meant to connect to a Hammond Organ. It has 2 15's and 2 12's in a 37 ½” high, 31 ½” wide, and 18” deep form factor. Its "just right". Tall enough to put stuff on, and more a rectangle than square. It also isn't much deeper than a Sonotube would have been.

    I scoured the web for the "right" PR-40. Finding units in Chicago, and Peoria IL, I messaged a local friend to see if he would want to buy any of the parts out of these for the shop he runs. They are tube amp powered after all, and use "ok" vintage drivers. He said he'd be willing to pay about 50 bucks for the parts if they were all there. That put both units at a very good cost, but there would be travel time and gas involved. Do-able, but would require a harder sell than I wanted to do at that time.

    Life got in the way, and time passed. Being a horrible person (see backstory), I had contacted both sellers for more pictures, so I had their email addresses, however I never actually bought either unit.

    Finally ready to revisit and move on a unit, I messaged my friend to see if he still would buy the parts out of them, and he surprises me.

    "Sorry Dan, not interested….." My heart sank. "Because I picked one up last week. You interested in the cabinet."

    My breath caught in my chest, I messaged back "When can I see it?"

    "I'm eating a (local Mexican place). How about after?"

    "Done."

    I meet him at his storage unit, and there she is. A PRISTINE PR-40 in gorgeous walnut, the finish I needed to match our existing darker mahogany/espresso furniture. It was all still in one piece, tube amps and all.

    Forgive me Father for I have sinned....

    For 25 bucks, I took the cabinet, and he took the internals. It came home with me yesterday. It cleaned it up very well, and I'm now starting to move onto the build I've dubbed the "ORGAN DONOR".

    I will be posting a TON of pictures later tonight (after I go to confessional :pensive: ), but suffice it to say, this unit is put together REMARKABLY WELL, and it's all Modular. The top came off with 4 screws, the front grill is attached with screws, making my job cutting pieces out extremely easy.

    One thing I didn't know but is ICING on the cake, is that the grill fabric uses individual strands of wire in it. You cant see it, but its there. Why do I care? Well I've got 3 dogs, a cat, and 2 kids. So it should significantly help deter them from poking drivers, and the grill fabric can handle some poking without needing replaced.


    The "only" flaw is that the top grill fabric has a tear, however my friend has a tub of similar older grill fabric that I can use, and he thinks he's got a perfect match for the front grill fabric.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    Nice story and well written! Can’t wait for the pic’s!
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.
  • mlistens03
    mlistens03 Posts: 2,767
    edited March 2018
    Don’t forget to post a video of things rattling off tables, lights falling, etc.
    Well done!
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,474
    Foundation problems next at 10 hehe :) hehe
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,517
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Foundation problems next at 10 hehe :) hehe

    Slab, so HA!

    If I had a crawlspace, this wouldn't be an issue as the subfloor would provide me enough ULF without this many subs, and I'd go with IB in the crawlspace potentially lol...
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,517
    edited March 2018
    verb wrote: »
    Nice story and well written! Can’t wait for the pic’s!

    I can give you guys a few now. I’m trying to keep the full story together on another forum, but vanilla doesn’t let you edit for long, so it’s impossible here.

    Subs (this is only 12 of my 16)
    y9cu6y44jc7j.jpeg
    67gdy5xzn38h.jpeg
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • mlistens03
    mlistens03 Posts: 2,767
    Wow. There is something slightly... TERRIFYING about seeing that many subs that powerful stacked ontop of each other like that.
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    1000w peak... So, 200 or so continuous?
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    Just gotta ask... while you were struggling to get by and put food on the table, you were buying subwoofers?
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,558
    Priorities my man, priorities.
    Just gotta ask... while you were struggling to get by and put food on the table, you were buying subwoofers?

  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,517
    FestYboy wrote: »
    1000w peak... So, 200 or so continuous?

    Yeah, 250 watts.

    Sensitivity (2.83V/1m) 90dB
    Nominal Impedance 4 ohms
    Power Handling (Peak) 1000W
    Frequency Response 35Hz-200Hz
    Power Handling (RMS) 250W

    That said, they were measured on DATS with the following T/S

    * This data was exported from DATS the Dayton Audio Test System
    *
    * Manufacturer: JBL
    * Model: CS1214 #1
    * Piston Diameter = 260.4 mm
    * f(s)= 25.57 Hz
    * R(e)= 3.439 Ohms
    * Z(max)= 40.8 Ohms
    * Q(ms)= 6.488
    * Q(es)= 0.5972
    * Q(ts)= 0.5468
    * V(as)= 104.6 liters (3.694 cubic feet)
    * L(e)= 3.16 mH
    * n(0)= 0.2792 %
    * SPL= 86.56 1W/1m (90.72dB 2.83v/1m)
    * M(ms)= 147.4 grams
    * C(ms)= 0.263 mm/N
    * BL= 11.68

    A few other thoughts, I would not use these past about 15mm as the spider really locks up beyond that point and audible distortion ramps up quite a bit when trying to push them further. But they are nice and quiet up to rated xmax. The 1260w/1262w followed a similar pattern. Likely designed with durability in mind to prevent over excursion and bottoming.

    My build as of now keeps them under 9mm, and the wattage required to get them to 15mm is more than I'd ever give them.

    My goal is 3 Crown XLS2000's. 4 of these can handle about 1700 watts in a 6cf box and still be under 15mm.

    My goal was to get a TON of small drivers (so lots of cone surface area), and then not push them to their limit, but about 1/2 of it as I dont need 130db @ 50hz.

    I'm focusing on the 20hz and below range, and this many drivers lets me boost it without massively raising THD.

    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,517
    Just gotta ask... while you were struggling to get by and put food on the table, you were buying subwoofers?

    Without going into to much detail, when I bought these, we thought we were ok. I'd sold some other stuff at that point, and that money got us over the hump. Then more things happened and we weren't ok anymore, but I was not able to return them, so I was stuck.

    More stuff got sold, funds going to non audio related expenses, such as you described.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    Sorry Dan, but that dog don’t hunt for me... your FS thread when you cited your difficulties was posted in October, but you state here that you started making all these purchases on Black Friday...

    I’m done.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    verb wrote: »
    Nice story and well written! Can’t wait for the pic’s!

    nljlvpd2h3yk.gif


  • mlistens03
    mlistens03 Posts: 2,767
    I would suggest the XLi series, they are way cheaper and almost as powerful, unless there is something that makes the XLS series work better for you.
  • mlistens03
    mlistens03 Posts: 2,767
    Wait nvm the XLi is not 2 ohm stable, misread what you said before.
  • oldrocker
    oldrocker Posts: 2,590
    I'm assuming I will hear something different floating across the empty corn fields soon. B)
  • verb
    verb Posts: 10,176
    Viking64 wrote: »
    verb wrote: »
    Nice story and well written! Can’t wait for the pic’s!

    nljlvpd2h3yk.gif


    Wrong pic! Plu's I've alrea'dy be'en educat'ed! :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS 1.2tl's, Cary SLP-05 Pre with ultimate upgrade,McIntosh MCD301 CD/SACD player, Northstar Designs Excelsio DAC, Cambridge 851N streamer, McIntosh MC300 Amp, Silnote Morpheus Ref2, Series2 Digital Cables, Silnote Morpheus Ref2 Series2 XLR's, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Pangea Power Cables, MIT Shotgun S3 IC's, MIT Shotgun S1 Bi-Wire speaker cables
    Office: PC, EAR Acute CD Player, EAR 834L Pre, Northstar Designs Intenso DAC, Antique Sound Labs AV8 Monoblocks, Denon UDR-F10 Cassette, Acoustic Technologies Classic FR Speakers, SVS SB12 Plus sub, MIT AVt2 speaker cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable, Groneberg Quatro Reference IC's
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated Amp, Tjoeb 99 tube CD player (modified Marantz CD-38), Analysis Plus Oval 9's, Zu Jumpers, AudioEngine B1 Streamer, Klipsch RB-61 v2, SVS PB1000 sub, Blue Jeans RCA IC's, Shunyata Hydra 8 Power Conditioner
    Living Room: Peachtree Nova Integrated, Cambridge CXN v2 Streamer, Rotel RCD-1072 CD player, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi sub
    Garage #1: Cambridge Audio 640A Integrated Amp, Project Box-E BT Streamer, Polk Tsi200 Bookies, Douglas Speaker Cables, Shunyata Power Conditioner
    Garage #2: Cambridge Audio EVO150 Integrated Amplifier, Polk L200's, Analysis Plus Silver Oval 2 Speaker Cables, IC's TBD.