Moving up to 7.2 system - Need advise

We bought a new house last year that came pre-wired for a 5.1 HT in the living room. The room is open in the back to the kitchen area. The ceiling is 10ft high and only 1 wall of the remaining 3 is solid. The others 2 walls have big glass windows on it.

Due to the pre-wired, clean look desires of my wife and budget, I decided to go with TCi80 for L/C/R, RCi80 for rear surround and 2 PSW111 subs. The receiver is a yamaha rx-v373.

The sound of my current system is pretty good. However I feel that does not fill the room completely and my wife complaints that can't hear the voices on movies (no matter how much extra db I assigned to the center channel).

I'm considering adding a pair of RTi8 for the L/R channels and changing the receiver for a more powerful one that would allow for front presence speakers using my current in-ceiling TCi80s and biamping the new front RTi8s.

Would it be a problem maintaining the existinng center in-ceiling speaker with the new proposed set-up? Any other recommendation? I don't want to through away my investment on the center channel speaker.

Thank you!
- Front LR RTIA5
- Center CSIA4 and TCI80
- Presence/Height LR TCI80
- Rear LR RCI80
- Subwoofers 2 PSW111
- AVR Yamaha RX-A830, amp Adcom GFA-7400

Patio: Atrium 4 and Sonos Connect amp

Comments

  • ROHfan
    ROHfan Posts: 1,014
    edited January 2015
    Adding two floorstanders is going to do nothing to help your situation. You are, however, on the right track with thinking about more power. But, you can't just add two more speakers, that just creates more issues.

    If I'm reading your post right, you have your center channel mounted in a 10' ceiling? And the front left and right also? That's tricky. How big is the room and how big is the kitchen area behind it? Need a little more info before anyone can make any decent suggestions.

    BTW, the center channel is the most important speaker in your home theater system. Do not underestimate its importance. Take that thing out of the ceiling, spackle over the hole, and get a real center channel that you can mount properly.

    I have in-wall speakers for my front heights and surround channels but my front sound stage has floorstanders for L-R and a dedicated center channel mounted at about eye level. My living room is only about 12x13 with an 8' ceiling so my layout works well. The problem with your setup is that your in-ceiling center channel will always be facing down at the floor, not at your ears. No wonder you can't hear dialog. I also have to question why the two subs? Adding a second sub is something one does when fine tuning a system but you have much bigger fish to fry and those two subs are just adding to your issue, IMO.

    Welcome to the forum. Stick around here, folks here really know their stuff. We'll spend your money for ya! :)
    TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
    Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
    Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
    Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
    Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
    AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier
  • dricosr
    dricosr Posts: 15
    Yes, your understanding is correct. The exact dimensions for the family room are 21'10" x 16' with a 9'10" ceiling height. The kitchen behind it is 25'7" x 14'.

    The reasons for the 2 subs is that I got them for free when I bought the in-ceiling speakers. I tried to sell one of them on ebay but didn't worked out so I added it to the mix and I actually like them.

    The fronts are tilted 15 degrees (factory angle) and the L/R are diagonally placed in relation to the center seat area.

    I hope this helps on your assessment of my situation.

    Thanks!
    - Front LR RTIA5
    - Center CSIA4 and TCI80
    - Presence/Height LR TCI80
    - Rear LR RCI80
    - Subwoofers 2 PSW111
    - AVR Yamaha RX-A830, amp Adcom GFA-7400

    Patio: Atrium 4 and Sonos Connect amp
  • ROHfan
    ROHfan Posts: 1,014
    edited January 2015
    dricosr wrote: »

    I hope this helps on your assessment of my situation.

    I can only go by my own experiences but there are people here who are light years ahead of my knowledge and it's my hope that some of them can chime in here.

    That being said, your room size is huge, almost 50' deep. Hard to fill that with small ceiling speakers, and if you keep trying to push them louder they will eventually fail or the AVR (Audio Video Receiver) will fail.

    If it was me in that situation I would get a 7.2 AVR that has pre-out jacks for all channels on the back. This way you can add an external amp down the line at some point. Your AVR has neither 7 channel capability nor external amplification capability. So right off the bat I'd get a 7.1 channel AVR. I have a Marantz SR5008 and I love it and would highly recommend it.

    I take it you came on this board in search of better sound so the following is only what I would do.

    WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) surely will come into play for your future upgrades. Along those lines, a 3-channel external amp could power your Front Left, Center, and Front Right speakers. The external amp will do the heavy lifting driving your front stage, leaving your AVR with plenty of power to drive the ceiling speakers which don't need much wattage. Once you have those two in place, you will be able to judge better if the ceiling center channel will get enough juice to sufficiently drive it at proper levels for dialog. If you then find you still have a center channel issue it's time to rip it out and spackle the hole and go for one that can be mounted on the wall pointed towards the listening area, or mounted on the top of an entertainment center. But, I would do these things and then see if more upgrades are warranted.

    It all depends on how much you want to spend, also. Start with the 7.1 channel amp and external amplification (I have a 3-channel Emotive XPA-3) and see what it sounds like. Center channel still struggling after those two additions? Then replace it with a more conventional center speaker. Next, if the front stage isn't filling the room I would add floorstanders and use the two remaining ceiling speakers as Front Height speakers. This way you're spending your money wisely and have all the pieces in place for a very good home theater that will sound better than all your friends' and family's systems. Then we'll talk about your subwoofers because they're gonna have to go, especially given the room size.
    TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
    Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
    Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
    Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
    Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
    AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier
  • rooftop59
    rooftop59 Posts: 7,952
    Hey dricosr, welcome to cp. as u can see from my sig, I have a similar setup except I have a bookshelf center channel. Almost all dialogue comes from the center channel, that that's where you r going to get the most improvement. If u mainly watch tv and movies and aren't worried about music, save the coin on the towers and just buy a beefy center like the csi5. Good luck!
    Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es; Squeezebox Touch with Bolder Power Supply
    Game Room 5.1.4:
    Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra

    Bedroom 2.1
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer
  • dricosr
    dricosr Posts: 15
    ROHfan: You were not kidding when you said you guys will spend the money for me ;). The marantz receiver and emotiva amplifier are out of range for me.

    Rooftop59: I'm curious to see your set up but I can't see your sig. I wonder if I have to go to the full site to see it.

    Thanks to both of you for the warm welcome to the forum. You guys have a comment in common regarding the center channel. Considering the WAF on removing the in-ceiling speaker and repairing the drywall, what about if I add another center speaker like the csi3 or csi5? I read somewhere that adding another speaker in series will reduce the impedance so adding another 8 ohm speaker will reduce the center channel to 4ohm. Therefore, must follow the amplifier suggestion for the center channel. Will it be a problem listening to both center speakers?

    I like the incremental approach from ROHfan. I could experiment with a 7 channel receiver (cheaper alternative like yamaha rx-v765 or 665) and an amplifier (cheaper alternatives outlaw model 2200 or emotiva upa-200).

    Here are my next steps if you guys agree:

    Step 1: try a 7 channel receiver with an external amplifier for the center channel. If no improvement go to step 2.

    Step 2: add another center speaker in series as suggested/mentioned above. If more improvement is necessary go to step 3.

    Step 3: add front standing speakers (rti8 again budget) and set the front in-ceiling as front high/presence.

    - Front LR RTIA5
    - Center CSIA4 and TCI80
    - Presence/Height LR TCI80
    - Rear LR RCI80
    - Subwoofers 2 PSW111
    - AVR Yamaha RX-A830, amp Adcom GFA-7400

    Patio: Atrium 4 and Sonos Connect amp
  • Polkie2009
    Polkie2009 Posts: 3,834
    Yea, those in ceiling speakers are better off being used for high/ presence setups in atmos or 9.2 or more channels. Hard to go wrong with front standing mains and center speaker at or about at face level in sitting position. That big old room will benefit from some acoustic treatments too. You'll thank us later after being amazed at how much better your system will sound with traps,panels, etc.
  • IMHO Polkie said it best, whoever designed the room was looking for a more aesthetic appeal than AV performance. I have been in homes where everything was in wall, but the LRC was placed facing the seating area and the surrounds were placed in the ceilings, and even that can be a challenge for action type movies.
    Family Room HT 7.2/i]:Vizio Oled55h1 Pioneer Elite SC-LX502 Pioneer Elite BDP 85FD Eversolo DMP A6 Panamax M5300-EXSpeakers Fronts Fluance XF8L Center Polk Audio S35 Side Surrounds Optimus LS30's Rear Surrounds Optimus LS30's Subs SVS PB4000 x2 Living room 2ch: Crown Xli 1500 amp Teac EQ MKII FX Audio X6 Mk II DAC Squeezebox Touch Fluance Signature Tower Speakers Panamax M5100-EXOffice media room:Vizio M50Q6 50" Pioneer Elite VSX LX103 Squeezebox Touch Polkaudio R50 Towers Polkaudio CS 10 Panamax M4300 Monoprice 12" subMaster bedroom:Vizio M55Q7 Pioneer Elite VSX LX302 Pioneer Elite BDP 85FD Squeezebox Touch Polk audio RTi 6 fronts, Rears Dayton B652 Polk Audio CS10 center Monoprice 12" sub Panamax M5300-EX
  • deronb1
    deronb1 Posts: 5,021
    Do you have a flat panel mounted to the wall? If so, there are a number of low profile centers that you could mount directly beneath the tv. Would greatly improve dialog and wouldnt be much of an eyesore for the wifey.
  • ROHfan
    ROHfan Posts: 1,014
    edited January 2015
    dricosr wrote: »
    I read somewhere that adding another speaker in series will reduce the impedance so adding another 8 ohm speaker will reduce the center channel to 4ohm.

    No, adding a speaker in series doubles the impedance to 16 ohms. Regardless, don't do it. You can just disconnect the in-ceiling center and install a good wall-mounted one as an alternate as suggested by others.
    TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
    Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
    Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
    Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
    Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
    AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier
  • dricosr
    dricosr Posts: 15
    ROHfan wrote: »
    dricosr wrote: »
    I read somewhere that adding another speaker in series will reduce the impedance so adding another 8 ohm speaker will reduce the center channel to 4ohm.

    No, adding a speaker in series doubles the impedance to 16 ohms. Regardless, don't do it. You can just disconnect the in-ceiling center and install a good wall-mounted one as an alternate as suggested by others.

    Sorry I meant a parallel connection not series. Still a no? The amplifier can handle 4 ohms. What about a Y RCA splitter from the center pre out to two different channels in the amplifier?
    - Front LR RTIA5
    - Center CSIA4 and TCI80
    - Presence/Height LR TCI80
    - Rear LR RCI80
    - Subwoofers 2 PSW111
    - AVR Yamaha RX-A830, amp Adcom GFA-7400

    Patio: Atrium 4 and Sonos Connect amp
  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    I would suggest you look at the Aventage line if you're looking at Yamaha AVR's. Look at accessories4less for a factory refurb. An 8xx series will be about new price of the entry levels.
    Def Tech has some pretty good sounding on wall speakers. mytthos, series. Maybe wife will go for something like that.
  • While you are at it and have ceiling speakers, look into the Dolby Atmos setup and upcoming DTS X. Might as well.

    Halen
  • ROHfan
    ROHfan Posts: 1,014
    dricosr wrote: »
    ROHfan wrote: »
    dricosr wrote: »
    I read somewhere that adding another speaker in series will reduce the impedance so adding another 8 ohm speaker will reduce the center channel to 4ohm.

    No, adding a speaker in series doubles the impedance to 16 ohms. Regardless, don't do it. You can just disconnect the in-ceiling center and install a good wall-mounted one as an alternate as suggested by others.

    Sorry I meant a parallel connection not series. Still a no? The amplifier can handle 4 ohms. What about a Y RCA splitter from the center pre out to two different channels in the amplifier?

    Parallel would still be 8 ohms.
    TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
    Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
    Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
    Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
    Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
    AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier
  • I'm looking at receivers and amplifiers and have the following 2 questions:
    1. Should I get a high end receiver with around 125w /ch or a moderate powered and an external amp? My speakers are rated at 125w @ 8 ohm. The center csi3/csia4 that I'm planning on getting is 180w.
    2. How to best match an amp to my speakers? Should I go lower or higher than the speakers wattage?

    Thanks!
    - Front LR RTIA5
    - Center CSIA4 and TCI80
    - Presence/Height LR TCI80
    - Rear LR RCI80
    - Subwoofers 2 PSW111
    - AVR Yamaha RX-A830, amp Adcom GFA-7400

    Patio: Atrium 4 and Sonos Connect amp
  • ROHfan wrote: »
    dricosr wrote: »
    ROHfan wrote: »
    dricosr wrote: »
    I read somewhere that adding another speaker in series will reduce the impedance so adding another 8 ohm speaker will reduce the center channel to 4ohm.

    No, adding a speaker in series doubles the impedance to 16 ohms. Regardless, don't do it. You can just disconnect the in-ceiling center and install a good wall-mounted one as an alternate as suggested by others.

    Sorry I meant a parallel connection not series. Still a no? The amplifier can handle 4 ohms. What about a Y RCA splitter from the center pre out to two different channels in the amplifier?

    Parallel would still be 8 ohms.

    Wiring two 8 ohm speakers in parallel drops it to a 4 ohm load. What I'm not sure about though is how crossover points are affected when you take a speaker with multiple drivers and a crossover network then just double the whole thing.

    Even if you were to do that, mismatching them is just kinda weird. You're going to run a ceiling speaker in parallel with a traditional center and run them both at the same time? Just weird, don't do it.

    My vote is to reassign the ceiling speakers to Atmos/height duty. Cut your losses on that ceiling center, worst case you're out $250 or less. I wouldn't try to patch it, just leave it there assuming it blends in well with the ceiling. You will probably do more harm than good trying to remove it then patch the area. If you get a pro in there to patch it you'll spend more on his work than if you had just left it alone and cut your losses. Doesn't make any sense to me.
  • dricosr wrote: »
    I'm looking at receivers and amplifiers and have the following 2 questions:
    1. Should I get a high end receiver with around 125w /ch or a moderate powered and an external amp? My speakers are rated at 125w @ 8 ohm. The center csi3/csia4 that I'm planning on getting is 180w.
    2. How to best match an amp to my speakers? Should I go lower or higher than the speakers wattage?

    Thanks!

    All depends on your budget and what your definition of high end is. Even fairly crappy receivers can be rated for that much power, but that don't mean it can drive all speakers at that level at the same time, nor will it be very dynamic in general or clean at high levels.

    Personally I would get your speakers right first. A wise man once told me that electronics come and go but you can easily have the same speakers around 10-20 years. I wouldn't be adding amps if it makes you get stuck with the weird center channel setup. Fix that then see how much room you have left.
  • ROHfan
    ROHfan Posts: 1,014
    Wiring two 8 ohm speakers in parallel drops it to a 4 ohm load.

    Ya know, I know that but I have no idea why I typed it. Must have had something else on my mind ;)
    TV: 65" Samsung QLED 4K
    Fronts: Energy RC70 --- Center: Energy RC-LCR
    Front Heights: Polk RC65i --- Rears: Polk RC85i --- Sub: Power Sound Audio XS15
    Pioneer VSX-1120K --- Parasound HCA-1000A --- Oppo BDP-103
    Vincent Audio SA31 preamp --- Teac UD301 DAC
    AIYIMA Tube T7 preamp --- Nobsound 12AX7 tube preamplifier
  • I 2nd the idea of getting a csi5. If you mount it it will look good despite the size.
  • I’m happy to report that the issues were solved using the incremental approach.

    1. I changed my receiver and added an adcom amplifier for the front LCR channels. Sound was slightly better.

    2. Added a CSiA4 center speaker. Got a Y rca pre-out splitter from the receiver to the amplifier and connected both in-ceiling and below tv center speakers. Big improvement in dialog. Kept noticing sound effects were more noticiable when directly below the L/R inceiling front speakers.

    3. Recently as Feb 2018, added a pair of RTIA5 as LR and changed previous inceiling front speakers to presence/height channels. Wow! Now we are talking. The sound (front stage) in movies improved quite significantly. Depending on the source I get dialog from the front presence LR and both inceiling and below tv center speakers.

    It took almost 3 years since my last post to achieve this set-up due to budget and WAF (lol).

    In summary my new 7.2 set-up is as follows:
    - Front LR RTIA5
    - Center CSIA4 and TCI80
    - Presence/Height LR TCI80
    - Rear LR RCI80
    - Subwoofers 2 PSW111
    - Receiver Yamaha RX-A830
    - Adcom amplifier 5006 powering both center speakers and rear speakers

    Thanks all for your comments and guidance.

    og1xotfvrnx6.jpeg
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    - Front LR RTIA5
    - Center CSIA4 and TCI80
    - Presence/Height LR TCI80
    - Rear LR RCI80
    - Subwoofers 2 PSW111
    - AVR Yamaha RX-A830, amp Adcom GFA-7400

    Patio: Atrium 4 and Sonos Connect amp
  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,454
    Nice looking setup.

    You might want to try and play with the configuration of your system a bit. Maybe try your AVR to power your front 3 and the amp for your ceiling speakers.
    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
  • mrloren wrote: »
    Nice looking setup.

    You might want to try and play with the configuration of your system a bit. Maybe try your AVR to power your front 3 and the amp for your ceiling speakers.

    Thanks for the suggestion. I did thought about that but wasn’t sure if I could power the center in-ceiling with the amp and at the same time power the center below tv with the AVR. Right now the center speakers are powered by bridged channels in the amp. The remaining two channels are powering the rears.
    - Front LR RTIA5
    - Center CSIA4 and TCI80
    - Presence/Height LR TCI80
    - Rear LR RCI80
    - Subwoofers 2 PSW111
    - AVR Yamaha RX-A830, amp Adcom GFA-7400

    Patio: Atrium 4 and Sonos Connect amp
  • mrloren
    mrloren Posts: 2,454
    you should be able to use both the RCA out and speaker out on the AVR. I've never tried it.

    When I was a kid my parents told me to turn it down. Now I'm an adult and my kids tell me to turn it down.
    Family Room:LG QNED80 75", Onkyo RZ50 Emotiva XPA3 GEN3 Oppo BDP-93,Sony UBP-X800BM. Main: Polk LsiM 705Center: Polk LSiM 704CFront High/Rear High In-Ceiling Polk 80F/X RT Surrounds: Polk S15 Sub: HSU VTF3-MK5
    Bed Room; Marantz SR5010, BDP-S270Main: Polk Signature S20Center: Polk Signature S35Rear: Polk R15 Sub: SVS SB2000
    Working Warehouse; Yamaha A-S301, Sony DVP-NS3100ES for disc Plok TSX550T SVS PB2000 Mini tower PC with 400GB of music
  • rooftop59
    rooftop59 Posts: 7,952
    mrloren wrote: »
    you should be able to use both the RCA out and speaker out on the AVR. I've never tried it.

    On many AVRs the manual explicitly says not to due that lol...
    Living Room 2.2: Usher BE-718 "tiny dancers"; Dual DIY Dayton audio RSS210HF-4 Subs with Dayton SPA-250 amps; Arcam SA30; Musical Fidelity A308; Sony UBP-x1000es; Squeezebox Touch with Bolder Power Supply
    Game Room 5.1.4:
    Denon AVR-X4200w; Sony UBP-x700; Definitive Technology Power Monitor 900 mains, CLR-3000 center, StudioMonitor 350 surrounds, ProMonitor 800 atmos x4; Sub - Monoprice Monolith 15in THX Ultra

    Bedroom 2.1
    Cambridge Azur 551r; Polk RT25i; ACI Titan Subwoofer
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    rooftop59 wrote: »
    On many AVRs the manual explicitly says not to due that lol...

    DUE that? Those manuals must be published in Asia. :p