SDA

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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    DSkip wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    xsmi wrote: »
    Yes. But how are people buying Sonus Fabers and Wilsons? The store that I've brought up before in Ann Arbor carries both lines and SALES both. So, if Polk makes a decent SDA speaker and it's priced right, I can see it saling as long as it's seen as a good product and decent value.

    There are still well to do folks out there that buy higher end stuff, but those folks aren't going to be looking at Polk products. These types don't necessarily put value for dollar spent as the top priority, they like brand recognition as a statement of their own personal successes.

    That's a broad brush you are using there.

    Might be Skip, there's always exceptions to everything. When it comes to selling anything for profit though, you need numbers to sustain yourself. On a smaller scale, you couldn't stay in business selling 5 sets of speakers a year no matter how good the speaker were.

    It's always a challenge in audio, to create new products, that people want, with innovation that drives desire for those products in numbers that you can make a profit on. I think Polk, even given their targeted audience, isn't seeing the numbers they would like. After all, isn't that why they have had so many friends and family sales ? Now people wait for them before shelling out the cash.

    If they come up with another SDA model line, they'll compete with their other series, which may be more profitable for them on a per unit sold basis. If they go the route of pricing them higher, doesn't make sense either because they can't seem to sell their current top of the line speakers in numbers or they wouldn't keep having 50% off sales. They've kinda positioned themselves between a rock and a hard place when it comes to SDA's. Not to mention the competition in Polks target audience has become deeper over the years.

    However, taking that technology and incorporating it into other products was brilliant in my view. It also gets the SDA tech back on the radar of consumers minds which may, or may not, depending on how well it's accepted, set the stage for future development of an SDA speaker. Which in my view wouldn't be a floorstander, but a bookie along the lines of the CRS's.

    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,053
    edited March 2017
    I can surmise the average 'Joe" buying a surround bar product from Polk could give a flip about SDA or be interested in future 2ch SDA products. So yes, keeping it in new products is good, but honestly the new products would be much less attractive if they didn't use a form of SDA. So it's necessary to the success of the product. It's not part of the product to solely drive some future sales of more expensive, much larger versions.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    DSkip,
    DSkip wrote: »

    In a world where there are hundreds to thousands of audio products in the world, I find it interesting that you think Polk couldn't compete if the product was done right and incorporated an excellent version of SDA in it. I'm not saying it would be an easy road to travel, but with the right marketing and demos in appropriate settings (like audio shows), it could be a gamechanger for them.

    DSkip, that's the point I was making. When we're talking Wilson and Sonus Faber, were talking speakers that go from around $6K to $100K. Polk's SDA's I would assume SDA's done correctly are going to command a price of $7K conservatively to around $15K. Polk isn't making a speaker in that class at the moment. But the SRS line was broaching those prices back in the day adjusted for inflation. Like D2Lo said, they have to get the dealers in line, then get the product in our hands.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • Stew
    Stew Posts: 645
    The original SDA's were approximately $1,000 to $3,000 a pair. Doubling that to adjust for inflation would put them at $2,000 to $6,000 per pair. IMHO, It seems like something in that price range or a little higher would have a good chance of success. Polk has always been about performing above their price point.
    SDA 2B-TL (Sonicap/Solen/Mills, Erse Super Q, Rings, Spikes, No-Rez)
    1000VA Dreadnought
    Dared SL-2000a (Siemens & Halske TM 12AT7WA's, Brimar 5Z4G)
    Jolida JD-100a (Sylvania BP TM Gold Brand 5751's), NAD C275BEE, Blue Jeans

    RTiA3, Onkyo TX-SR605
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    Stew, I was overshooting a bit so that people wouldn't get TOO bent out of shape if Polk needed to charge a little more. My guess is they would as R&D and marketing is going to be a bit more expensive than it was in 1991.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    edited March 2017
    DSkip wrote: »
    Not sure how you view them competing against themselves? If SDA is implemented in the new line, it will be a new flagship line. The LSiM has years on it now and the line is probably reaching the end of its cycle (if its not already there).

    In a world where there are hundreds to thousands of audio products in the world, I find it interesting that you think Polk couldn't compete if the product was done right and incorporated an excellent version of SDA in it. I'm not saying it would be an easy road to travel, but with the right marketing and demos in appropriate settings (like audio shows), it could be a gamechanger for them.

    Maybe you misunderstood.....I never said Polk couldn't compete, just not at the higher end of audio. They compete quite well within their targeted audience. A quality built SDA speaker will no doubt have added costs to it over what it costs them to produce LSIM's. Personally, and I agree, that the LSIM line within a few years will get replaced, think replacing it with a more expensive model like an SDA might struggle a bit.

    For them to take on another attempt at higher end audio, the stars have to align. Meaning, the company has to have the budget for it, support it and market it, the consumer base has to be doing better economically to look at a more expensive product from a brand that built it's reputation on bang for the buck.

    It seems to me, Polks current strategy was to streamline their offerings, evident by dumping the Monitor series and LSI's. Adding another series is something I don't think they want to do. Replacing a current series with a more expensive one seems risky also. In order to have a shot at success, they'd need to have the company throw it's full support behind it and the funds to make it happen. Not so sure todays climate supports that endeavor.

    Just my opinion, I could be wrong, but logic dictates over desire in my world. Many would like to see SDA's come back in all it's glory, just don't think it's a wise business move at this juncture for them.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    tonyb wrote: »
    ...
    There are still well to do folks out there that buy higher end stuff, but those folks aren't going to be looking at Polk products. These types don't necessarily put value for dollar spent as the top priority, they like brand recognition as a statement of their own personal successes...

    Thus is McIntosh still around :)

  • motorstereo
    motorstereo Posts: 2,042
    What a great thread this is. It's very informative yet entertaining and it has also reinforced the notion that I've made the right choice with my 1.2tl's as lifetime keepers.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    Right there with you Motor. I am fortunate to have a few pieces that are never going anywhere.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    I WISH I had 1.2TL's. My SRS 2's will have to do for now. What about a lineup like this?

    Signature Series
    LSiM -Replacement
    SDA

    Each line has no more than 4 speakers in it with a center and surrounds. That's STILL less cluttered than what is offered at the moment.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 10,042
    @xsmi you might be surprised to find that you prefer your SRS 2s to 1.2s in the end.
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    I've heard 1.2TL's many times. I KNOW I want them.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    I would love to see Polk go with DMD or ribbon tweeters in a new SDA. Is it possible we might get a broad overview of what might be on the table?
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    I would love to see Polk go with DMD or ribbon tweeters in a new SDA. Is it possible we might get a broad overview of what might be on the table?

    LOL, you and me both but I think we are starting to live in fantasy land there. Some want totl drivers, real wood cabinets, diamond tweets or ribbons, higher grade crossover parts, higher grade finishes.....suddenly those new SDA's will be hitting the 7-8k category.

    I'd like to see Polk partner with someone on a new series of SDA to bring them into the modern world. Say someone like Jim Salk, I really like what he's done and how his speakers progressed. To put out a series of more expensive speakers, I think if Polk collaborated with other higher end brands it would go a long way into re-introducing the Polk name back into the higher end circles. Just a thought.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    OK. I admit it, I'm a fanboy! I understand that Polk damaged their reputation with the high end market. But again, I have to believe that what I was told in the mid '90's by a prominent high end dealer in this area that the damage was done by going after discount big box business. It wasn't that their product was lacking, it was where they wanted to do business. Yes, that hurts brand, but I have to believe that if Polk announced, were serious about getting back into the high end market, they can do that. Put those kinds oaf parts in their offerings will go a long way in showing how serious they are.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • K_M
    K_M Posts: 1,627
    edited March 2017
    I thinks the Lsi and Lsim are pretty serious about being "highER end" speakers, but still being quite cost effective.
    They got rave reviews, are considered by most to be quite good sounding, and use fairly decent drivers., and have great fit and finish, and looks.

    Now if you are talking "High priced", I do not Polk doing that again effectively.
    I do not see Polk being able to sell speakers costing much more than those 2 lines, as any quantity that would net a profit.
    Also, what was deemed high priced or high end, in the late 1980s, has changed in the intervening 25 years.
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    I wonder where Polk is on this today?
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    I hope not...
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    It's been pushed aside for sound bar "innovation".
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,474
    tonyb wrote: »
    I would love to see Polk go with DMD or ribbon tweeters in a new SDA. Is it possible we might get a broad overview of what might be on the table?

    LOL, you and me both but I think we are starting to live in fantasy land there. Some want totl drivers, real wood cabinets, diamond tweets or ribbons, higher grade crossover parts, higher grade finishes.....suddenly those new SDA's will be hitting the 7-8k category.

    I dunno Tony in today's money those 3500.00 SDA's of 1992 are close if not more, not to mention all the SRT's they sold that were what 10K or close to it? Those would be Legacy Whisper money if not more in today's dollars...

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    I would love to see Polk go with DMD or ribbon tweeters in a new SDA. Is it possible we might get a broad overview of what might be on the table?

    LOL, you and me both but I think we are starting to live in fantasy land there. Some want totl drivers, real wood cabinets, diamond tweets or ribbons, higher grade crossover parts, higher grade finishes.....suddenly those new SDA's will be hitting the 7-8k category.

    I dunno Tony in today's money those 3500.00 SDA's of 1992 are close if not more, not to mention all the SRT's they sold that were what 10K or close to it? Those would be Legacy Whisper money if not more in today's dollars...

    Exactly, in "todays money", because that's where we live, most of us anyway. :) To make a speaker today with the wish list we all want, your talkin' min. 7k. Polk can't sell a 7k + speaker, not in todays competition.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    Where did my comment go? It was neither rude, nor offensive. Just said the idea was dead and buried.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,474
    Where did my comment go? It was neither rude, nor offensive. Just said the idea was dead and buried.

    who's this guy ^^^ can anyone see him? John ? John is that you???
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    Lol...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    Is this stuff you've read, or writing on the wall? I'm just asking...
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • tonyb wrote: »
    To make a speaker today with the wish list we all want, your talkin' min. 7k. Polk can't sell a 7k + speaker, not in todays competition.

    Polk could sell a 7K+ speaker IF they create a separate and distinct "luxury" brand similar to what Toyota did with Lexus and what Nissan did with Infiniti and, IF they marketed it properly. The fit, finish, and performance of the LSiM series, and the performance of modded SDAs provides some insight that Polk could compete with the best high end speaker brands if they really wanted to enter that market.

    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,474
    tonyb wrote: »
    To make a speaker today with the wish list we all want, your talkin' min. 7k. Polk can't sell a 7k + speaker, not in todays competition.

    Polk could sell a 7K+ speaker IF they create a separate and distinct "luxury" brand similar to what Toyota did with Lexus and what Nissan did with Infiniti and, IF they marketed it properly. The fit, finish, and performance of the LSiM series, and the performance of modded SDAs provides some insight that Polk could compete with the best high end speaker brands if they really wanted to enter that market.

    I think they could do it as Polk. Just market it as the people that brought you High End SDA's and SRT's back to our high end roots
    Finally back where we belong
    Or something like that.

    Then again I'm not in marketing
  • Earthy
    Earthy Posts: 488
    I don't listen to my 2.3 TL's much these days. My Dad got them back in the '80's and I was so jealous. He gave them to me a decade ago. I don't have the best room for them. They do sound great but I know we are missing something due to placement. Lately I wonder if I should let them go to someone that has a better space. Just owning them is kind of satisfying and maybe that is enough.
    Polk Audio SDA SRS 2.3TL
    Parasound Halo A21
    Parasound Halo P3

    Home theater
    Polk LSiM 707, 706c, 703, 705
    Polk Blackstone TL3 for height
    SVS PB12-ISD Sub
    Denon AVR-X6400h
    Parasound Halo A51
    LG OLED65B7A
    Sony UBPX800
    Logitech Harmony Elite
    PC LSiM 703
    Spare LSIM 702 and 706c

    Home Theater #2
    Polk Audio LS70, CS350LS, LSF/X, S4
    Onkyo TX-NR808



  • gimpod
    gimpod Posts: 1,793
    edited February 2018
    There use to be a sticky (by the man himself) posted in July of 2001 by Kim (Jasper ?) in the Vintage Speakers Section that got deleted, It's just gone or I just can't find it. Thank god for "Internet Archive: Wayback Machine" here's a re-post.

    Why were SDA's discontinued? by Matthew Polk

    "Here is the answer to that burning question written by Matthew Polk.

    This is a surprisingly difficult question to answer mainly because there is no simple answer. We began selling the SDA products in 1982 and stopped making them around 1990 except for a brief revival with the SRT system made in 1995 and 1996. From the first SDA-1 shown at CES in June 1982 customers loved them. However, this was not necessarily true of the retailers. SDA was a radical departure from the traditional audiophile concept of how audio should be reproduced and many of the salespeople in stores at that time were audiophiles. As a result, many of them hated SDA and steered customers away from them. In addition, because of the way SDA speakers work many retailers did not get them set up properly for demonstration which didn't help either. In spite of this SDA products sold amazingly well particularly when you consider how expensive they were relative to most everything else on the market. As I recall the original SDA-1 started out at $1,600 per pair retail at a time when most stores had nothing over $1,000 per pair. But, anyone who actually got to hear them was absolutely blown away and we were able to get a few good reviews particularly from Michael Riggs at High-Fidelity who described SDA as "Mind-boggling, astounding!". By 1986 we had a full line of SDA products from the SDA CRS+ at under $1,000 to the SRS-1.2 at $3,500.

    But, the industry was changing rapidly. First, the era of big speakers was coming to an end and non-hobbyist customers were starting to prefer the then new sub-sat systems and the then brand-new concept of in-wall speakers. SDA speakers were big. The classic side-by-side driver arrangement meant a wide front baffle for any SDA product just as the trend was going to narrow towers and smaller speakers in general. Second, the small independent retailers were gradually turning into large regional chains with huge open format stores and non-hobbyist salespeople. The result of this was that retailers began to lose the ability to really demonstrate the performance of audio products. It's really impossible to describe the experience of SDA to someone. It really has to be demonstrated. So, as the stores became less and less able to demonstrate high performance products customers didn't have an opportunity to experience what SDA could deliver. Third, the development of digital electronics and surround sound drove the cost of high quality audio components rapidly upward but drove the cost of low quality surround sound receivers rapidly downward with a commensurate reduction in performance. Because of the channel cross coupling in SDA it is always a difficult load for an amp to drive. Many of the new multi-channel receivers just couldn't do it. So, with fewer and more expensive high performance amps the options for good SDA electronics became very slim.

    So, a combination of changes in what non-hobbyist customers wanted and what the retailers were capable of selling plus changing technology made the SDA products much more difficult to sell. Of course it had nothing to do with the performance of the SDA systems which continues too astonish people even today.

    -msp "
    “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.” ~ Mark Twain
  • FestYboy
    FestYboy Posts: 3,861
    So that post is (I'll assume) now 20-ish years old? I think the HiFi scene has changed for the better since, especially as of late. It's time for a resurgence.