Need new central heat/AC

BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 9,950
The central heater/AC for this house was probably built/installed in the early 80s, and now needs to be replaced by something reliable and efficient. It is mounted on the roof, and is gas heat.

Any suggestions for a good replacement. I don’t mind paying a few extra dollars for something that will work 20-30 years with no issues.
Bud - Silicon Valley

Lumin S1
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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Comments

  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 9,602
    Rhreem
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
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  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 9,950
    I like that name. Hope they don’t do it to their customers. :)

    Thanks.
    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin S1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • hochpt21hochpt21 Posts: 5,001
    Tooooobsss...
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  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 7,914
    Wood in the winter, open windows and fans in the summer, very reliable. :)
    Living room: Samsung UN55KU7000 4K UHD HDR 55 inch TV, Marantz CD6004, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, Parasound zPhono, Mac Mini, Oppo BDP-93, XBox One S 2Tb, Kenwood DPX792BH car deck for radio purposes, Marantz SR5010 AVR, Parasound HCA-1200II, Front SDA 2 modded with Larrys Rings and RD0-194-1 tweeters, Rear Onkyo SKF-4800 Towers, Center CSiA6, BOOM Tannoy TS2.12 Sub, Audioquest Evergreen interconnects just about everywhere except from AVR to amp, MIT Terminator 4, MIT AVT3 speaker cables with extra terminals covered up Monitor 5 Jr+ in the wings for a center channel.
  • charley95charley95 Posts: 632
    Took out a Rheem that had been in my house since 77. Damn fine unit, just upgraded to a York that I installed in 2011 with no issues so far. I've heard that Lennox parts are only available to techs. only and not available to consumers. Parts availability without having to call a tech. is important to me. I'm lucky to know a retired HVAC guy that does installs for a fraction of what other outfits charge. He sold me my York furnace/AC for $2900 installed.
  • obieoneobieone Posts: 5,050
    edited January 14
    Knowing your location will help determine what you need(just need a state)
    If you live in the north, and run the heat 70% of the year, then a bullet proof brand would be Trane, or York.
    MAKE SURE you tell the salesperson, you want the simplest controls possible (Lennox has gotten SUPER stupid with over engineering stuff)

    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 1,656
    Package units,mi would go with Rheem/Ruud. Trance makes good units, I just hate working on them. I would stay away from Carrier and Lennox products. Just too many electronics in those guys, and there's a high failure rate on package units.

    Goodman tends to keep me busy, and that pretty much covers them. York, not very many of them in my area, one sub-division that I can think of. No package units, but not the best installs on split systems, so quite a few problems.
  • decaldecal Posts: 3,002
    Nothing runs like a Trane.
    If you can't hear a difference, don't waste your money.
  • shawn474shawn474 Posts: 2,786
    We got a Bryant about 9 years ago and have not had one issue with it whatsoever. Runs like a champ, quiet and efficient. We only have about 1300 square feet so that probably factors into it but never a problem. The only thing I did was install a whole house humidifier as we have a very dry house.
    Shawn
    Pre-Amp: Marantz AV-7005 Pre
    Amp: B&K AV5000 Series II
    Center Channel: Polk LsiM706c
    Front: Polk LsiM703
    Rear: LSI fx
    Subwoofer: SVS 20-39pci
    Television: Samsung LN46B640
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  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 9,950
    I live in CA. Don't need the heat all that much, but I want it to work when I need it. The AC is important as the stereo creates a lot of heat, and in the summer I need to keep the windows closed to keep the music inside.

    Thanks for the info.
    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin S1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • mrbigbluelightmrbigbluelight Posts: 7,440
    All the commercial divisions of the Big Boys (Carrier, Trane, etc) are having some difficulties. One of the first areas that companies cut back on is maintenance.
    "Deferred maintenance" is the new buzz word, so businesses think, "Hey, it's running now, so do we really need to punch those tubes ?".
    As the Big Boys lose business and their senior techs retire (Get out while the gettings good), they attempt to steal the known good techs from each other.

    Any-who, the general thought now seems to be, "Hey, let's over design our residential units, sell them relatively cheap, and make our profits on the back end in service calls and parts".
    Lennox and Trane only sell replacement parts to their techs. Proprietary parts out the wahzoo (and believe me, that's painful !).

    Rheem is a good recommendation.
    If a company tries to convince you to buy a heat pump, punch them in the face, and throw them off the front porch. :o
    MrBigBlueLight
    Here to pick your brain & steal your cookies
    Shifting to Plan B+
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,626
    FWIW I am currently liking the idea of a heat pump as (work with me here ;) ) backup for our LPG-fired boiler. Said boiler happens to be a Buderus (now Bosch, apparently) -- talk about too much technology! :( It is darned complex and finicky.

    So, we now have a little over 5 kW of photovoltaic panels online :) ... and suddenly the idea of a heat pump for summer cooling and as better-than-freezing-and-bursting-pipes backup for heating is becoming attractive to me. Mind you, we decided not to install central air in this house when we had it built -- a decision I regret every summer for about 2 weeks :/

    Heat-pump heat (even with electric 'booster' heat when it's crazy cold) as a hedge against boiler failure/burst pipes is lookin' like an attractive option to me (not that we've gone too far down the road of evaluating options, yet). I read good things about the Mitsubishi units, and we had installed a two-piece Mitsubishi "Mr. Slim" :) air conditioner in our old house in MA some years back (and we were quite happy with it).

    http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/benefits/hyper-heating

    I can absolutely 100% see replacing our current gas-fired boiler with something simpler and/or more robust in the fullness of time (irrespective of the above-mentioned, umm, pipe dreams about a heat pump)... so this thread is of interest to me! It sounds, so far, like there's no "slam-dunk" 100% satisfaction-guaranteed option, even from the big names, though :(


    9chzuovxd15o.jpg



    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • mrbigbluelightmrbigbluelight Posts: 7,440
    Where you're at and the temperatures you experience, Mr. Hardy, a "normal' heat pump arrangement (air condenser) wouldn't really do you any good, IMO, for any potential heating concerns. You'd almost always be using auxiliary heat (electric heat coils).
    With the property you have, though, a heat loop field could work. You'd definitely want to consult with a competent, trusted contractor to get an estimate for a ground loop.
    MrBigBlueLight
    Here to pick your brain & steal your cookies
    Shifting to Plan B+
  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,634
    I just did all this at my other house.

    I went with Coleman products. Yes, it's the same name as Coleman camping stuff but it's just a brand name for the consumer level stuff from Johnson Controls. JC has huge arms for industrial stuff that is branded Johnson Controls but they also have commercial arms and consumer arms.

    The brands from Johnson Controls that you would be familiar with at a residential level are York and Coleman.

    http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/
    http://www.colemanac.com/
    http://www.york.com/

    I have zero complaints about the Coleman products. They are efficient and my heater and AC share a blower unit so my heater and ac unit both have SEER ratings of about 14 by themselves. Combine them to work together and the SEER rating jumps to 15. For the size of the units needed for that house, the only way you get a higher SEER rating is go to with the TOTL Lennox system which is 3 times the cost.

    I replaced my heater, AC and water heater (water heater is a Rheem) for about $9800. My utility bill budget per year dropped almost $3K out of it because of how efficient everything is now. The AC that was replaced was ~28 years old. The heater was 19 and the water heater was 11.

    My other house has dual zone AC with a Lennox system for upstairs and a Unico for downstairs. The heat is radiant heat and the boiler is a Munchkin. I don't have enough experience with the Lennox, Unico and Munchkin systems to have an opinion but the Innertubeswebs say that all 3 are tops. So far, I can't complain.

    https://www.unicosystem.com/
    https://www.lennox.com/residential
    http://www.munchkinboiler.net/

    I would not necessarily go for "the best" but find an HVAC company who will actually do an assessment on your house and be honest with you. If I could recommend the one I went with to you, I would but I doubt their coverage area includes CA all the way from NJ.


    Also, Trane is no longer bulletproof. They moved manufacturing to China and Mexico and have had severe quality issues since. So much so that there are class action suits against them. I would avoid them right now until they get their act together. It's so bad that a few HVAC companies here have dropped them and don't even offer them as an option anymore because the warranty claims were killing the business.

    Carrier is also having issues and the guys I bought my stuff from are a Carrier dealer as well and they recommended to steer clear for now because of their issues too. It's not that they break real easy or have manufacturing defects like Trane is going though. It's because they are moving production overseas despite everything and you can't get parts for them. So if it breaks you could be looking at weeks of downtime. Not cool. Both figuratively and literally.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,634
    Oh, also, the units replaced at by the Coleman and Rheem stuff:

    AC - Rheem, almost 30 years old
    Heater - Coleman, about 19 years old so it was a Johnson Controls brand then too
    Water Heater - A. O. Smith, was 11 years old, probably should have been replaced 2 years earlier but I keep cobbling it back together. I replaced it because it started to leak.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,049
    I dunno Professor, given your house is located on plenty of wooded acreage, wouldn't adding a wood burner to the existing make sense ? They also make those ones you keep outside, looks like an outhouse with a chimney, to heat water inside. You kill 2 birds with one stone, heat the joint and get rid of the downed wood on the property.
    HT SYSTEM-
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  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 9,950
    I posted this on three sites to gather as much info as possible, and Rheem/Trane seem to be the top responses so far. This was the first time Coleman was mentioned, and I wasn't aware they were also in this business. My spa, which I bought in 94, is a Coleman, and it has been pretty reliable. However, it probably isn't related to the AC/heater division.
    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin S1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • charley95charley95 Posts: 632
    I think Coleman is made by York if I'm not mistaken.
  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,634
    Whatever.

    Don't read my post.

    If you don't want to listen to me maybe you'll read a Wikipedia article instead. Johnson Controls effectively started in 1883 and you owe your electronic thermostats to Warren Johnson. He invented them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Controls

    Or should I create a bunch of shill accounts and go to other forums and just mindlessly bleat a brand name like everyone else just to get you to think for yourself and do some research?

    Either way, it's your funeral. Have fun.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 9,602
    Rheem
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,054
    I have a bryant evolution 5 stage and it sips kilowatts in the summer. 90 deg and humid, i was averaging between 5 and 9 kWh per day....less than $1 for 24 hrs.

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,626
    Looks like York and Coleman both are Johnson Controls brands.

    http://www.colemanac.com/Residential/About-Us
    www.york.com

    qhihonxabv2h.png
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 9,819
    edited January 17
    Jstas wrote: »
    I went with Coleman products. Yes, it's the same name as Coleman camping stuff but it's just a brand name for the consumer level stuff from Johnson Controls. JC has huge arms for industrial stuff that is branded Johnson Controls but they also have commercial arms and consumer arms.

    The brands from Johnson Controls that you would be familiar with at a residential level are York and Coleman.

    http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/
    http://www.colemanac.com/
    http://www.york.com/



    Guess nobody read this from John, pretty clear

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,626
    edited January 17
    I missed that one, sorry.
    (EDIT: actually, it's more like I read it and forgot that I'd seen it, then I reacted/responded to the Coleman comment from someone else... not that this is any better, but it's more accurate -- on my part)

    :|
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • kevhed72kevhed72 Posts: 3,181
    We are in Southwest GA. and have a new heat pump and it literally blows. Thank goodness we have a propane fireplace to supplement the paultry heat this thing kicks out. Also, IMO dont hesitate to haggle on price with the sales guy. Our neighbor didnt get a good price at all because hes just not into the whole haggling thing.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,626
    They're pricey -- our son-in-law has one quote, for $15k (their house is small, too).
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • mrbigbluelightmrbigbluelight Posts: 7,440
    A little off topic, maybe, but something to think about regarding heat pumps is that the air coming out of your vents is going to feel colder.
    With a heat pump, you'll have about 90 degree out blowing out of the vents, with a gas furnace, you'll have about 120 degree vent air.
    90 degree sounds pretty warm, until you get up in the morning on a 5 degree day, then it feels like the AC is on.

    I won't get started on the dreaded words, "reversing valve". I don't want to get banned for excessive use of potty words. "Reversing valve": proof that Satan does have a sense of humor.
    MrBigBlueLight
    Here to pick your brain & steal your cookies
    Shifting to Plan B+
  • obieoneobieone Posts: 5,050
    A little off topic, maybe, but something to think about regarding heat pumps is that the air coming out of your vents is going to feel colder.
    With a heat pump, you'll have about 90 degree out blowing out of the vents, with a gas furnace, you'll have about 120 degree vent air.
    90 degree sounds pretty warm, until you get up in the morning on a 5 degree day, then it feels like the AC is on.

    I won't get started on the dreaded words, "reversing valve". I don't want to get banned for excessive use of potty words. "Reversing valve": proof that Satan does have a sense of humor.

    RV's are a COMPLETE PITA to change. I had to mine last year, thanks God I know how to fix them. The pecking order of crappy repairs is:
    1. RV's
    2. TXV's
    3. suctions line service valves.

    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
  • ken brydsonken brydson Posts: 6,936
    kevhed72 wrote: »
    We are in Southwest GA. and have a new heat pump and it literally blows. Thank goodness we have a propane fireplace to supplement the paultry heat this thing kicks out. Also, IMO dont hesitate to haggle on price with the sales guy. Our neighbor didnt get a good price at all because hes just not into the whole haggling thing.

    HT/Main- Panny 50" G10 Plasma, Pioneer SC-1222k AVR, Panny DMP-BD60 BDP, Polk LS90 mains, CS350LS center, LS/fx side surrounds, LS50 surround backs, SVS 25-31PC+ sub, Harmony One

    Office Rig- Marantz 2252B, Denon 2910, Kenwood KD2070 TT, Polk RTA 12B's/ RTA8t
  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 1,656
    Friend of mine bought a house about 4 years ago. Went over check her system before she bought it. Coleman heat pump. In this area, heat pumps actually work.

    Anyway I told her to keep her home warranty, it would be worth it for the A/C repairs alone. She listened and so far has had to replace the evaporator coil, and today her outdoor metering device went out.

    She would have spent about $2500 on both of those repairs, and her system is only 6 years old. I wouldn't recommend Coleman.

    Heating side of a system has absolutely nothing to do with the SEER rating. It is strictly a rating for the cooling side of the system.

    If you replaced a system that was 28'years old it was probably around 8 SEER rating, and 14 SEER would be about 40 percent more efficient. Incidently, 14 SEER is about the lowest efficiency system one can buy. Unfortunately, that is also about the average of residential package units.

    Not a big demand for residential package units out there, so not a lot of research and developement goes into them. So forget about things like de-humidifiication control, just not available, except when the thermostat over cools for a couple of days.

    SEER ratings, to me aren't that much of a big deal either. Rheem/Ruud gets an extra half SEER by not energizing the reversing valve in cooling mode on their heat pumps.

    Don't think there are many, if ant residential package units that hit 16 SEER out there, so your looking for long lasting equipment. In my experience it's still Rheem/Ruud. Second would probably by Carrier/Bryant. I have seen quite a few of Carriers Payne line of residential package units in the 18 plus year range, still running.

    The company I work for wont install York, Coleman, Goodman, Amana, or Daiken in residential applications. We do quite a bit of warranty work on them, and that's probably the reason.

    quote="Jstas;c-2374888"]I just did all this at my other house.

    I went with Coleman products. Yes, it's the same name as Coleman camping stuff but it's just a brand name for the consumer level stuff from Johnson Controls. JC has huge arms for industrial stuff that is branded Johnson Controls but they also have commercial arms and consumer arms.

    The brands from Johnson Controls that you would be familiar with at a residential level are York and Coleman.

    http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/
    http://www.colemanac.com/
    http://www.york.com/

    I have zero complaints about the Coleman products. They are efficient and my heater and AC share a blower unit so my heater and ac unit both have SEER ratings of about 14 by themselves. Combine them to work together and the SEER rating jumps to 15. For the size of the units needed for that house, the only way you get a higher SEER rating is go to with the TOTL Lennox system which is 3 times the cost.

    I replaced my heater, AC and water heater (water heater is a Rheem) for about $9800. My utility bill budget per year dropped almost $3K out of it because of how efficient everything is now. The AC that was replaced was ~28 years old. The heater was 19 and the water heater was 11.

    My other house has dual zone AC with a Lennox system for upstairs and a Unico for downstairs. The heat is radiant heat and the boiler is a Munchkin. I don't have enough experience with the Lennox, Unico and Munchkin systems to have an opinion but the Innertubeswebs say that all 3 are tops. So far, I can't complain.

    https://www.unicosystem.com/
    https://www.lennox.com/residential
    http://www.munchkinboiler.net/

    I would not necessarily go for "the best" but find an HVAC company who will actually do an assessment on your house and be honest with you. If I could recommend the one I went with to you, I would but I doubt their coverage area includes CA all the way from NJ.


    Also, Trane is no longer bulletproof. They moved manufacturing to China and Mexico and have had severe quality issues since. So much so that there are class action suits against them. I would avoid them right now until they get their act together. It's so bad that a few HVAC companies here have dropped them and don't even offer them as an option anymore because the warranty claims were killing the business.

    Carrier is also having issues and the guys I bought my stuff from are a Carrier dealer as well and they recommended to steer clear for now because of their issues too. It's not that they break real easy or have manufacturing defects like Trane is going though. It's because they are moving production overseas despite everything and you can't get parts for them. So if it breaks you could be looking at weeks of downtime. Not cool. Both figuratively and literally.[/quote]

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