Phono Input.

deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
edited December 2017 in Electronics
The phono input on my Onk 805 is just "ok". SQ is average, but really have to crank volume to get same spl from other devices. If i get a phono pre, can i plug into Onk phono input, or will there be an impedence issue? Maybe into an aux input?
Post edited by KennethSwauger on

Comments

  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Should say input. Stupid fat fingers
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,567
    With a dedicated external phono preamp, you would hook that up to a line level input, like one labeled CD or AUX.
    Got Dayens?
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Clipdat wrote: »
    With a dedicated external phono preamp, you would hook that up to a line level input, like one labeled CD or AUX.

    Cool, thanks.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,567
    I am surprised to hear that you have to dramatically increase the volume when using the Phono input though. That's kindof the whole point of the phono preamp stage, to bring that up to a standard-ish line level type of volume/response.

    After you select the Phono input, what listening mode are you using?

    Then again, maybe we just shouldn't expect too much from a phono stage in an AVR?
    deronb1 wrote: »
    Cool, thanks.

    Got Dayens?
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Ive tried various settings, direct, pure A and stereo. All seem a bit dull and lifeless with low output. Its an old Denon DP 11F with an average AT cart.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,567
    Might be worth going up the chain back to the source to see if anything can be addressed there before attempting a new phono pre.

    That being said, you could definitely hit up Music Direct, Crutchfield, etc that all have 30+ day return/trial windows and give one a try to see if it addresses the issue.
    deronb1 wrote: »
    Ive tried various settings, direct, pure A and stereo. All seem a bit dull and lifeless with low output. Its an old Denon DP 11F with an average AT cart.

    Got Dayens?
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Good idea. Ill see what A4L might be offering as well. Thanks.
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,567
    I know you didn't ask for my opinions, but if I were you I would look into these:

    https://www.crutchfield.com/p_779CP1S/Cambridge-Audio-CP1-Silver.html

    https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-preamps/music-hall-pa12-mmmc-phono-preamp

    deronb1 wrote: »
    Good idea. Ill see what A4L might be offering as well. Thanks.

    Got Dayens?
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Thanks. Just looked at the MH pre. Can get for under 150 from Amazon. Not sure if i have a MM or MC cart...lol
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,567
    The majority of readily available consumer carts are MM, so I am guessing MM.
    deronb1 wrote: »
    Thanks. Just looked at the MH pre. Can get for under 150 from Amazon. Not sure if i have a MM or MC cart...lol

    Got Dayens?
  • msgmsg Posts: 4,268
    edited December 2017
    I don't know, guys, my experience with phono is similar? I have to crank the volume up significantly to match the volume of my other sources, which are digital.

    I'd say at least 3 - 6dB lower for phono in my case, according to the input level adjustment I can set on the AVR I'm using. Even then, it's still a little lower.

    I think this is where others use a SUT (step up transformer)?

    Most phono preamps will offer MM or MC, but not all, so it's wise to check, yes.
    Is there not a switch on your Onkyo for MC/MM? Could be it only does MM. Lo MC requires greater gain, iinm, and some people like using a LoMC cart with the SUT and MM setting on the phono pre.

    The cart should have an identifier on it somewhere. Might be on top, covered by the headshell. You'll want to know what it is for proper tracking and antiskate.
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    It doesnt say anything on the cart and there is no switch on the avr.
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Ok, manual says only works with MM cart. Now to find out what mine is...lol
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Well, i removed the front yellow piece, but no markings. Cant get it back on right to produce sound....i break everything...lol
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,567
    Upgrade time!!!

    https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-cartridges/ortofon-2m-red-mm-phono-cartridge
    deronb1 wrote: »
    Well, i removed the front yellow piece, but no markings. Cant get it back on right to produce sound....i break everything...lol

    Got Dayens?
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Right!!
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,785
    edited December 2017
    The amount of gain from the OP's on-board phono preamp is fixed. If the phono cartridge has a lower-than-average output level (and the output level of a typical moving magnet cartridge is on the level of a few millivolts), the volume control (which attenuates the gain of the preamp as it feeds the output section of the receiver or amp) has to be turned higher (less attenuation) to get a given level of output.

    It's really nothing more than an inconvenience as long as the phono preamp's
    gain is sufficient to drive the receiver or amp's output section to full output (if and when required)!

    In the olden days, it wasn't uncommon to have 'trimmer' attenuators for the different input "channels" on a component so that the user could "normalize" the volume level of different sources (to avoid the effect that the OP's asking about). McIntosh preamps, e.g., offered these, as did many Heathkit components.

    An outboard phono preamp may or may not provide more gain than the onboard preamp. Many of the outboard preamps have adjustable gain to accommodate the different output levels of different cartridges, as well (in many cases) as allowing the adjustment of other parameters (capacitance and resistance) of the preamp's input to match the requirements of the cartridge more precisely.

    None of the above comes without a price, though! ;) Something like the little Schiit Mani preamp, Art DJ Pre ii or Jim Hagerman's Bugle phono preamp might be a good, cost effective choice for the OP. As mentioned, the output of any of these gizmos has to be plugged into a "line level" input (such as an AUX, CD, TAPE MONITOR, or TUNER input) on an amp or receiver to work properly & as intended.

    Or one can buy a phono cartridge with higher output :)

    I hope this is helpful info and not (too) redundant to earlier posts -- nor too confusing!

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,785
    edited December 2017
    quick overview of cartridge types and output levels FYI & FWIW:

    * Moving Magnet (MM) or Moving Iron (MI):
    Historically the most common "audiophile" cartridge topologies, and operationally interchangeable to the "end user". The nominal output level* of such cartridges ranges from 1 to 10 mV (millivolts) -- that's a 10 dB spread!

    Some companies (e.g., Grado) offer low-output MM or MI cartridges, which require higher gain than "normal" MM/MI cartridges -- but these are rather more esoteric (expensive!) items.

    * High output Moving Coil (HOMC):
    Outputs are similar to the MM/MI cartridges (typically a little lower than average), although the "loading" properties may be a bit different than a generic MM/MI cartridge.

    * Low output Moving Coil (LOMC):
    These typically have output levels on the order of 0.1 mV (100 microvolts). This is 20 dB less than a 10 mV MM cartridge; thus an additional 20 dB of phono preamp gain is required to get the same output from a phono preamp for an LOMC compared to a "DJ style" MM or MI cartridge!

    Running an LOMC on an MM phono preamp would result in output levels (volume) ca. 20 dB lower than an MM cartridge; this is a much softer volume level than "expected")

    (as an aside, the "load" required for an LOMC is also different than for an MM/MI cartridge)

    In practice, there are two ways to accommodate this wide variety of cartridges and outputs. Some phono preamps have a wide enough range of gain levels to accommodate them all. Some folks use an add-on "head amplifier" to get that additional 10 to 20 dB of gain required for an LOMC to feed into a regular old MM
    phono preamp stage, or folks could instead use a passive (non-amplified, non-powered) gizmo called a "SUT" (step up transformer) to raise the 0.1 mV output of a LOMC to a few mV to feed a phono preamp.

    There are other cartridge "topologies" but those above cover probably 98% of the ones used by most folks in the real world today :)

    Finally... ;)

    It's also probably worth noting that the phono preamp sections (whether in a receiver or amp or outboard) have another function besides gain and loading. The phono preamp is also an equalizer, adjusting the compensation curve (RIAA curve) applied during the mastering of a record/cutting of the master disk to give flat output for playback.

    All in all, the phono preamp takes a compensated, very low level signal from a record player's cartridge and adjusts it to a normal "line level" signal (like that of a CD player or a tape deck or tuner) to feed an amplifier or receiver to ultimately drive a speaker.

    HTH :|

    ______________
    * The output levels of cartridges are "nominal" because, of course(!) music is dynamic. They are generally referenced to a standard (expressed as the 'velocity' of a modulated groove on a record) -- so, e.g., a cartridge rated for 5 mV output generates an electrical signal of 5 mV when "playing" (tracking) a record with a groove modulated at 1000 Hz and a velocity of 5 cm/sec (this is Shure's standard, e.g., from a 1973 catalog).

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 15,875
    edited December 2017
    ignore me, I'm an id10t
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,785
    OH, for A-T cartridges: IME, the model number, if it appears anywhere on the cartridge, is on the "top" of the cartridge (i.e., the cartridge must be removed from the headshell to see it).

    The OP's A-T is almost certainly of the MM kind.

    FWIW, there is a fairly comprehensive (maybe too comprehensive) cartridge database at: https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php

    For example, the classic :p AT95E cartridge has a nominal output of 3.5 mV.

    gd7c1seafdlc.png
    https://www.vinylengine.com/library/audio-technica/at95e.shtml

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 15,875
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Thanks fellas. Will try and get more info from the cart.
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    Ok, got it fixed. That sucker was hard to snap back into place!
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,567
    Did you find out what model cartridge it is?
    Got Dayens?
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,281
    No, unfortunately.
  • soundfreak1soundfreak1 Posts: 2,823
    A picture might bring an answer.
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!