I know we have a few plumbers in the house.

1st, I'm not ignorant when it comes to plumbing, I was an HVAC Tech for many years, trained by some pretty smart people, and I'm pretty handy.
I have an American Standard "Hamilton", one piece toilet, model # 2092. It's probably 10-12 years old. I've replaced all the internals on this thing, and it's driving me nuts. There's a leak between the tank and the bowl. It's very slight, but enough for the fill valve to have to top off every 5-10 min. At first I thought it was the fill valve, so that was replaced with a Fluidmaster Anti Siphon Valve. Then I replaced the flapper, 1st with a Korky universal, then an actual American Standard flapper. That didn't work, so I just replaced the entire flush valve, with the correct American Standard replacement. It's still leaking.
There was no sealant or putty when I took the old flush valve out.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Home Theater/2 Channel:
Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
Den:
Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

dhsspeakerservice.com/
Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

"And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
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Comments

  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 592
    What lead to replacing the internals to begin with? The slow tank leak or something else?
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    Tank leak
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,532
    have you tried the food coloring trick at night?
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,532
    have you tried the food coloring trick at night?
  • DaveHoDaveHo Posts: 1,522
    edited September 18
    The tube that shoots water into the flush valve overflow tube. Make sure that it does not exit below the water level in the tank or it will siphon water.
  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 592
    A quick look says a small bead of silicon at the flapper base to tank interface should do the trick. I suspect there's some etching at the flange that allows water to pass.
  • motorhead43026motorhead43026 Posts: 2,151
    edited September 18
    M80 and flush, problem solved. That will take care of the small leak anyway.
    Post edited by motorhead43026 on
    2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk Signature S60's
    Cables: Wireworld Eclipse IC, Audio Art IC3; Speaker cable LA International SS-800; PS Audio AC-3 power cords; All into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.

    All TV's sound enhanced by Polk Magnfi Mini's.

    Other; SDA2BTL's, M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage.
  • Well, that may have not been the MOST helpful bit of advice, but still ..... that was pretty good. :)

    The other dawg's advice (pitdog) will tell you a lot right away.
    Go to the supermarket and get some good ol' red dye. Dump the whole bottle in the tank. Wait 10 minutes and observe.
    If you see red in the bowl, it's sneaking by the flapper base.
    If you see red on the floor, or on the lines leading to the fill valve, you have a leak where the fill assembly attaches to the tank.

    I say put the whole bottle of red dye in the tank to avoid wasting time and to help eliminate some guess work.
    "I think I see where it's leaking from" goes out the window if you use enough dye to really see what's happening.

    As an hvac guy, you could dump some liquid R12 in the tank and get your sniffer out.
    ;) :)

    BTW, I assume that the toilet is "self-fllushing" occasionally because the actual level in the tank is going down.
    MrBigBlueLight
    Here to pick your brain & steal your cookies
    Shifting to Plan B+
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    have you tried the food coloring trick at night?
    I know where the water is coming from.
    DaveHo wrote: »
    The tube that shoots water into the flush valve overflow tube. Make sure that it does not exit below the water level in the tank or it will siphon water.
    It doesn't.
    FestYboy wrote: »
    A quick look says a small bead of silicon at the flapper base to tank interface should do the trick. I suspect there's some etching at the flange that allows water to pass.
    I saw that as well, but it puts the toilet out of commission for long time

    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    Well, that may have not been the MOST helpful bit of advice, but still ..... that was pretty good. :)

    The other dawg's advice (pitdog) will tell you a lot right away.
    Go to the supermarket and get some good ol' red dye. Dump the whole bottle in the tank. Wait 10 minutes and observe.
    If you see red in the bowl, it's sneaking by the flapper base.
    If you see red on the floor, or on the lines leading to the fill valve, you have a leak where the fill assembly attaches to the tank.

    I say put the whole bottle of red dye in the tank to avoid wasting time and to help eliminate some guess work.
    "I think I see where it's leaking from" goes out the window if you use enough dye to really see what's happening.

    As an hvac guy, you could dump some liquid R12 in the tank and get your sniffer out.
    ;) :)

    BTW, I assume that the toilet is "self-fllushing" occasionally because the actual level in the tank is going down.

    I wish I had a full tank of R12. I could sell it, remodel both bathrooms and still have money left over.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    Viking64 wrote: »
    1) Dynamat Xtreme on the inside of the tank.

    2) New caps, resistors, inductors in the float.

    3) Loctite the seat to the bowl.

    4) Replace copper SDA pipe between upstairs toilet and downstairs toilet.

    Too many soldering fumes for you
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    M80 and flush, problem solved. That will take care of the small leak anyway.

    I may pop one in my mouth if this keeps up
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,532
    edited September 18
    M80 and flush, problem solved. That will take care of the small leak anyway.

    I may pop one in my mouth if this keeps up

    That sure would wreck all the good work the Doctor just did :(
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 14,821
    M80 and flush, problem solved. That will take care of the small leak anyway.

    Good point; there are two ways to mitigate a small leak, and he didn't specify which way he wanted to go with it.

    ;)

    I like the siphon idea suggested earlier -- although I've gotta say that my knee-jerk response, given what he's already done, would be to say "replace the terlit". They're not that expensive and they're not that hard to replace (as long as one resists the temptation to overtighten anything when installing!).
    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

  • DaveHoDaveHo Posts: 1,522
    Casting flash on the flush valve seat? Since it's new there won't mineral build-up, but just for gits & shiggles take a mr clean magic eraser to the flush valve seat & put a light coating of plumber's grease or vasoline on the flapper surface that mates with the flush valve. Still leaking?
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    M80 and flush, problem solved. That will take care of the small leak anyway.

    I may pop one in my mouth if this keeps up

    That sure would wreck all the good work the Doctor just did :(


    So the water is coming from the flap area? is it getting under the connection there?




    Yes I believe so. I'll have to find some type of sealant
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    DaveHo wrote: »
    Casting flash on the flush valve seat? Since it's new there won't mineral build-up, but just for gits & shiggles take a mr clean magic eraser to the flush valve seat & put a light coating of plumber's grease or vasoline on the flapper surface that mates with the flush valve. Still leaking?

    The seat is smooth as a baby's behind. I even applied pressure with my finger to the flapped to seat it. There's either a hole in the ceramic, or it's leaking under the flapper valve. It's basically a large compression seal. It's just not sealing. I even tried rotating it, maybe find a sweet spot.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 592
    Rtv would do it (shorter dry time) or, hot glue!!! Not sure why I didn't think of it earlier, it almost instant and won't damage anything.
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,532
    edited September 18
    I was having the same problem with my mom's. like you drove me nuts, I ended up replacing the darn thing. Those Kohler aqua pistons are very nice. I have had one for 7yrs. never have had to replace the gasket. I bought one for my mom and never looked back.

  • Moose68BashMoose68Bash Posts: 3,413
    edited September 18
    As Dr. Hardy advised, it's time to cut your losses and replace the whole toilet -- unless, of course, it is a vintage American Standard that has a unique soundstage that cannot be matched by any contemporary replacement. :)
    Family Room, PS Audio PW Transport, DirectStream DAC; AQ Sky XLRs, Perreaux SM6 MKII Pre; AQ Sky XLRs, Perreaux Prisma 750 Amps or CAT 600.2 Dualmono Amp, Morrow SP7 Speaker Cables, SDA SRS 1.2tls (RD0198s, Dreadnought, Black Hole 5, Acousta-Stuf, Dynamat Extreme, JBWeld. Vr3 Mods: "The Abbot" Monastery-Level Xovers, Custom Internal Wiring, Binding Post Plates, & SDA ICs).

    Exercise Room, Wadia 171 iPod Dock, PS Audio PerfectWave MkII DAC, AQ Sky XLRs, Perreaux SM6 Preamp, AQ King Cobra RCAs, Perreaux PMF3150 Amp, Dreadnought, Supra Rondo 4x2.5 Speaker Cables, SDA 1Cs (Vr3 Mods Xovers).

    Synology 713+ NAS on Gigabit LAN serving PW MkII DAC & DirectStream DAC.
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 285
    There's nothing like mating a vintage American Standard to your "Power Port".
    Polk SDA SRS 2.3TL
    Silk Audio MS38SE Tube Amp
    Yamaha DSP A-1 AV Amp
    Panasonic TC-P65S2 Plasma TV
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    I just hate replacing something, that's in perfect shape otherwise. This really isn't rocket science, we're not talking rocket motors here. Only a couple of moving parts.
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    edited September 18
    Vanilla double post
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • mrbironmrbiron Posts: 4,328
    Wow....didn't know know you had actual plumbing way out there. Learned something new today. Good for you! :p

    Spray flex seal on the inside of the tank.......

    Where does it leak to? On the floor...In the bowl...Worm Hole?
    Zu Audio Omen MK-1B's, Peachtree Decco65, Bryston BDA-2, Cheap TT, PS Audio UPC200, PS Audio AC3's, Zu Mission SC's, HTPC, One, Bottlehead Reduction & Crack w/Speedball
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,532
    edited September 18
    mrbiron wrote: »
    Spray flex seal on the inside of the tank.......

    this may just be the ticket.....



  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    mrbiron wrote: »
    Wow....didn't know know you had actual plumbing way out there. Learned something new today. Good for you! :p

    Spray flex seal on the inside of the tank.......

    Where does it leak to? On the floor...In the bowl...Worm Hole?

    We just got indoor plumbing last year. Still roll the sidewalks up at night though.
    Leaking internally from the tank to the bowl
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
  • mrbironmrbiron Posts: 4,328
    OK....well since you aren't drinking out of the toilet (if you are then that has to stop immediately) i'd look at flex seal. Pull the flapper, coat the bottom of the tank, and be done with it.

    You really are attached to this toilet. Most "sane" people would chuck it for another.
    Since you just got plumbing, i understand the connection. ;)
    Zu Audio Omen MK-1B's, Peachtree Decco65, Bryston BDA-2, Cheap TT, PS Audio UPC200, PS Audio AC3's, Zu Mission SC's, HTPC, One, Bottlehead Reduction & Crack w/Speedball
  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 592
    I know you have a hot glue gun... Put that thing to use!
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 5,740
    I may try the flex seal. I thought of making a sealing gasket out of plumbers putty, but you can't use it on porous ceramic
    Home Theater/2 Channel:
    Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
    Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
    Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
    Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
    Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-350, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
    Cables: Speaker: Furez 10/2 with GLS Locking Banana Plugs
    Interconnect: Furez 10/2 with SpeakONs
    ICs: Custom Furez by Douglas Connections
    Den:
    Bose 901 Series II Continentals Restored, Re-Built Equalizer with Elna Silmic IIs, Sonicaps, and Silver Mica Caps
    Carver CT-3 Pre, Carver PM-600

    dhsspeakerservice.com/
    Now Carrying Gimpod's Custom SDA Circuit Boards

    "And keep her under 70, would you, huh? Betty likes a slow ride"
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