How hot is too hot

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jayman_1975
jayman_1975 Posts: 672
in Electronics
Just wondering what the general thought is on the amount of heat emitting from a piece of gear that one should be comfortable with. I have my amp in my rack with only about 3" clearance above it. It gets pretty warm, like just about too warm to hold your hand on for more than 10 seconds. I do have a cooling fan that I tried and it definitely cools the amp down but it's pretty loud and I would rather not have to use it. I guess I should try running it in an open spot to see just how hot it gets there and then decide if that's fairly normal.
Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
Arcam CD37
Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
Vandersteen V2W
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  • dannylightning
    dannylightning Posts: 233
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    i can hold my hand ontop of my amp for as long as i want.. if its about to burn you i would say its definitely too hot..

    someone showed me this the other day.. looks awesome and i guess its really quiet..
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW0G46K/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2AW0W4FKP16S5
    Cambridge Azur 651A
    Polk LSi M703
    Sonos Connect




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  • motorhead43026
    motorhead43026 Posts: 3,892
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    3" is not enough, especially if the rack is not open on the sides and back.
    2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk SDA2BTL's; LAT International speaker cables, ZU Mission IC's and power cables all into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.

    Other; M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.

    The best way to predict the future is to invent it.

    It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact.

    Imagine making politics your entire personality.
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,369
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    Are you referring to your receiver or a separate amplifier? If it was a separate amplifier in it's stock form I'd say don't worry about it. Separate amps are built to dissipate heat effectively.

    If it's your modified receiver I'd say take it out of the rack and ask the company that did the upgrade about excessive heat build up. Some stock Onkyo receivers have inadequate heat dissipation built into their processor section which can shorten the lifespan of the processor. I think the processor normally runs hot in its stock form. It's very rare that the actual amplifier section in a receiver is running too hot in its stock form or the big companies wouldn't be allowed to sell their receivers. It appears from what the Upgrade Company says about their modifications that they use a lot of shielding but they don't say much about what else it is they do. They can give a good recommendation on space requirements. A quiet fan would also work.
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
    edited July 2017
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    dannylightning wrote: »
    i can hold my hand ontop of my amp for as long as i want.. if its about to burn you i would say its definitely too hot..

    someone showed me this the other day.. looks awesome and i guess its really quiet..
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LW0G46K/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2AW0W4FKP16S5

    Its SUPER QUIET. I have mine on top my Denon X4000 in a rack that has a closed glass face, two wooden sides and its only really open on the back. There are some slots in the bottom for natural airflow, but this fan makes a HUGE difference and the ONLY time I remember its running is when I am calibrating XT32 and the entire house is dead silent and I hear is a very slight whirring with the cabinet door open lol...

    Otherwise during ANY type of normal use you'd have NO IDEA....

    Its got 4 standard settings, each I think in 25% increments. I have mine set to I think 25%, but even at 50 and 75 its hard to hear from 6 feet away
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • jayman_1975
    jayman_1975 Posts: 672
    edited July 2017
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    Emlyn wrote: »
    Are you referring to your receiver or a separate amplifier? If it was a separate amplifier in it's stock form I'd say don't worry about it. Separate amps are built to dissipate heat effectively.

    If it's your modified receiver I'd say take it out of the rack and ask the company that did the upgrade about excessive heat build up. Some stock Onkyo receivers have inadequate heat dissipation built into their processor section which can shorten the lifespan of the processor. I think the processor normally runs hot in its stock form. It's very rare that the actual amplifier section in a receiver is running too hot in its stock form or the big companies wouldn't be allowed to sell their receivers. It appears from what the Upgrade Company says about their modifications that they use a lot of shielding but they don't say much about what else it is they do. They can give a good recommendation on space requirements. A quiet fan would also work.

    I'm referring to my separate amp. My receiver does run hot above the hdmi board normally but the amp section in it never really got too warm. No.....I actually did run it once to the point of the internal fan coming on but that was only once and I was just doing it as a comparison situation to see where it's limits were. Hit over 100db and just started to see the amp section lose a bit of control after a few minutes so that's as far as it went. That was the first time ever I heard the internal fan come on. The Onk has a few more inches of clearance as it sits in a different spot on my rack.

    My 2 channel PS Audio 200cx is what I'm referring too. It's a beast at 70lbs and is superb but it does run hot....quite hot. Strangely enough my Ps Audio 200c runs cool as a cucumber in the same rack.

    Oh and my rack is open front back and sides
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Arcam CD37
    Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
    Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
    Vandersteen V2W
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,369
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    Ok, I didn't see the amp in your signature. Yes, the 200CX is biased to run in Class A and will put out a lot of heat. Same as older Krell amps, it's the nature of the beast.
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  • slk55amg
    slk55amg Posts: 305
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    My Emotiva XPA5 is cool to the touch after running 6-8 hours a day.
    Emotiva XPA5, Sony ES 5300,: Lsi 15,s LSIC, Monitor 70,s, ( side surrounds) FXI 3,s, (rear surrounds)Micropro4000, Velodyne DEQ 10, Sony 55inchXBR 930D Sony BDP 790 Bedroom rig SonyES 3200 RTIA1,s CSIA4 FXI3,s polk PSW 10 SONY 34inch XBR960:cool:SONY BDP550
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
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    Heat is the enemy of electronics. It might work while hot, but the life expectancy can be shortened by the heat.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,352
    edited July 2017
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    Make S'mores!

    bm6as5isj9po.jpg
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,369
    edited July 2017
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    On the 200CX all of the heat sinks are inside the cabinet. In addition, half of the decent sized heat sinks are situated in the middle of the amp rather than on the outer edges. That will of course make the amp very hot in the middle of the top which is unusual. What is inside is really pretty simple for an amp. Big capacitors and big output devices in what looks like a dual mono design. The thing looks rugged! But, it may be a good idea to give it 5 or 6 inches clearance above it because of the physical layout internally if it is just run with passive ventilation.

    Since the amp has been putting out power for 30 years I guess there is a slight chance something is wrong with it, but based on its design it sounds like it is doing what it is supposed to.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    It's sad to see so many people worried about their amplifier running hot these days. When did this become some sort of no-no? Pure Class A and Class A biased A/B amplifiers run hot even at idle. These amplifiers use components rated for the temperatures they will see. Heat doesn't kill them, they actually perform better at those temperatures.

    If it doesn't get hot it ain't worth squat.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
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    You could damn near fry an egg on my old Emo monoblocks that have a class A/AB switch. Setting them to AB was a little cooler but not by much. They were great space heaters in the winter. Class A waste half of its power as heat so it's normal to be hot.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company

    Out of curiosity have you ever looked inside to see what they did?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
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    F1nut wrote: »
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company

    Out of curiosity have you ever looked inside to see what they did?

    Lots of tin foil and hockey tape.
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

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  • jayman_1975
    jayman_1975 Posts: 672
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    F1nut wrote: »
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company

    Out of curiosity have you ever looked inside to see what they did?

    Shielding.....lots of shielding as well as some Upgraded caps and a few other things. They use a material that blocks Rf interference therefor making them run more like separate components. I get that they still share one power supply so they do have their limits. But I gotta tell ya I was blown away by how good this Onkyo is, I used to own an Arcam c1 preamp, Arcam cd37 CD player, Arcam Av9 pre/pro, and a pair of Arcam P1 mono blocks as well as a P38 stereo amp. It was and excellent system. This Upgraded Onk along with the Upgraded Oppo 93 is as good or maybe even better. I let the Onk do the decoding for movies and music via hdmi and I haven't had a better system. Just for giggles I purchased a Schiit Bifrost DAC and tried it in the mix and it never improved a thing so I sold it.

    I got an itch a bit ago and threw these PS Audio amps into the equation and there is indeed some improvement. There is a silky liquid sound in the top end that I didn't have with just the Onk. But if you read the reviews on the 200c or Cx you will see what they were in their day and even still to this day are quite an amp. The only issue is the humm that they have. It's quite faint but it's there. Goes away when the music starts but I have been so used to a dead black background with the Onk, spoiled even maybe. Also the heat that comes off the 200cx. Even when idle. The 200c doesn't even get warm. They both humm but they both sound excellent otherwise.

    Hey I know that The Upgrade company is very secretive about what they do and they will actually void your warranty if you break the seal on the back. But wouldn't you know it my gear is past the warranty period, is anyone interested in seeing inside either the Onk or the Oppo? Or both?
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Arcam CD37
    Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
    Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
    Vandersteen V2W
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  • jayman_1975
    jayman_1975 Posts: 672
    edited July 2017
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    F1nut wrote: »
    It's sad to see so many people worried about their amplifier running hot these days. When did this become some sort of no-no? Pure Class A and Class A biased A/B amplifiers run hot even at idle. These amplifiers use components rated for the temperatures they will see. Heat doesn't kill them, they actually perform better at those temperatures.

    If it doesn't get hot it ain't worth squat.

    Ps Audio actually recommends leaving the amp on all the time or warming it up for a half hour before listening.
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Arcam CD37
    Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
    Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
    Vandersteen V2W
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  • motorhead43026
    motorhead43026 Posts: 3,892
    edited July 2017
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    I upped the bias on my HCA-1500 so the heat sinks run in the 116 (122 degrees is max) degree area. This equates to 17mv. The bias was at like 7-8mv and the thing would not even get warm. This made a improvement in the sound overall.

    Of course it will never rival a class A in heat.

    I do have at lease 6" above for venting, and it's in an open rack.
    2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk SDA2BTL's; LAT International speaker cables, ZU Mission IC's and power cables all into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.

    Other; M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.

    The best way to predict the future is to invent it.

    It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact.

    Imagine making politics your entire personality.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    Here's some pics of his work. Tin foil, hockey tape and blue goop.

    iy9hivvwuc4d.jpg

    132dmo7pm8t5.png



    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • motorhead43026
    motorhead43026 Posts: 3,892
    edited July 2017
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    ^^This is why they don't want you opening it......lol.

    What do they charge for that, like a grand?
    2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk SDA2BTL's; LAT International speaker cables, ZU Mission IC's and power cables all into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.

    Other; M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.

    The best way to predict the future is to invent it.

    It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact.

    Imagine making politics your entire personality.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jayman_1975
    jayman_1975 Posts: 672
    edited July 2017
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    F1nut wrote: »
    Here's some pics of his work. Tin foil, hockey tape and blue goop.

    iy9hivvwuc4d.jpg

    132dmo7pm8t5.png



    Yeah whatever it is they use it took an $1800 HT receiver and a $400 universa player and made it out do a $7500+ two channel system not counting the cost of speakers and cables. That first pic has got a lot of stuff wrapped to isolate signals from each other. That's probably why it does so well. Zero interference. Not sure what that second pic is of.
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Arcam CD37
    Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
    Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
    Vandersteen V2W
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    In the first picture that is hockey tape, it has no shielding capabilities.

    The second picture is a pre amp, IIRC.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • jayman_1975
    jayman_1975 Posts: 672
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    There is something that's wrapped around to hold the material in place yep. I played hockey for the first 18 hrs of my life and just by the pic that doesn't look like hockey tape to me. I'm gonna open mine up and see what's doin.
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Arcam CD37
    Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
    Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
    Vandersteen V2W
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  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
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    jayman_1975 wrote: »
    I played hockey for the first 18 hrs of my life and just by the pic that doesn't look like hockey tape to me.

    I don't even remember the first 18 hours of mine. Barely remember the first 18 years lol :wink:

    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

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  • jayman_1975
    jayman_1975 Posts: 672
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    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    jayman_1975 wrote: »
    I played hockey for the first 18 hrs of my life and just by the pic that doesn't look like hockey tape to me.

    I don't even remember the first 18 hours of mine. Barely remember the first 18 years lol :wink:

    Hahaha. Good eye. 18yrs it should have read.
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Arcam CD37
    Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
    Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
    Vandersteen V2W
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  • skrol
    skrol Posts: 3,337
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    Try giving it more breathing room and check the temps. I have a modded Parasound (got instructions from Mr. Curl himself in biasing higher) and it ran hot in my rack with about 4" above. I was going to re-bias but then I took it out of the rack, nothing above or beside, and it runs cool.
    Stan

    Main 2ch:
    Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Benchmark DAC1, Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.

    HT:
    Marantz SR7010, Polk: RTA11TL (RDO198-1, XO and Damping Upgrades), S4, CS250, PSW110 , Marantz UD5005, Pioneer PL-530, Panasonic TC-P42S60

    Other stuff:
    Denon: DRA-835R, AVR-888, DCD-660, DRM-700A, DRR-780; Polk: S8, Monitor 5A, 5B, TSi100, RM7, PSW10 (DXi104 upgrade); Pioneer: CT-6R; Onkyo CP-1046F; Ortofon OM5E, Marantz: PM5004, CD5004, CDR-615; Parasound C/PT-600, HCA-800ii, Sony CDP-650ESD, Technics SA 5070, B&W DM601
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,094
    edited July 2017
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    jayman_1975 wrote: »
    Yeah whatever it is they use it took an $1800 HT receiver and a $400 universa player and made it out do a $7500+ two channel system......
    I played hockey for the first 18 hrs of my life and just by the pic that doesn't look like hockey tape to me......

    Hahaha. Good eye. 18yrs it should have read.

    You must have suffered some hearing loss then...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • jayman_1975
    jayman_1975 Posts: 672
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    Funny you mention that. I have had two hearing tests in the past 7 yrs and both came back with normal results. But it could be that I don't know what to listen for I guess. I just know what I hear and what I like.
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Arcam CD37
    Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
    Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
    Vandersteen V2W
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    I'd like to see inside pics of your gear.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • jayman_1975
    jayman_1975 Posts: 672
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    Sounds good. I'm up for an adventure. Gimme a few days.
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Arcam CD37
    Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
    Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
    Vandersteen V2W
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,794
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    Excellent!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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