new system - vocals a bit subdued............. (ideas)

jolson72 · June 2017

Hi, I was referred to this forum as a great place for learning / information. I just purchased a great system used. It is a Plinius Integrated, PrimaLuna tube CD player and a pair of Paradigm Signature S4 speakers. This equipment replaced an all Rega system.

There is a lot more information on my new system, and it sounds great..... but it seems like the vocals are a bit flat, or subdued...... I have good cables, etc., so just curious if there is something I should try to switch up. Any ideas?

mikeyb128 · June 2017

Do vocals sound subdued with just the CDP or through all inputs?

jolson72 · June 2017

Mikeyb128, just tried a Diana Krall CD on two CD players: Primaluna tubed and a rega Planet.... The vocals just seem a little bit flat... Not quite as high and crisp as they should be.... Try different speaker cables?

Nightfall · June 2017

Did you always have the Paradigms or did you have Rega speakers before?

jolson72 · June 2017

Nightfall: Just got the Paradigm speakers. The new system has a lot more information... But the high vocals just seem a little flat...... And I was using an old beat up pair of KEF speakers, as they sounded better than the Rega speakers I had.

Nightfall · June 2017

Do you still have the any of the other speakers to compare? It might just be that you don't like the Paradigm sound would be my guess. Cables will make a difference, but not large enough to go from recessed midrange to forward midrange IMO more for final tweaking.

jolson72 · June 2017

Nightfall: will do a test in a bit. What is a good CD / artist to test vocals with?

Nightfall · June 2017

I'd imagine Diana Krall is already a good choice.

marvda1 · June 2017

what are your cables? what are the tubes in the cd player?

jolson72 · June 2017

Marva1: CD player is a Primaluna Prologue 8 with the stock tubes. The Rega Planet I have sounds similar. Cables are Siltech SQ-110 Mk 2 interconnects and Siltech
LS-88 speaker cables that came with the system.

F1nut · June 2017

What brand/type are the stock tubes?

The Rega CDP has a very laid back top end.

Nightfall · June 2017

Steve Hoffman on tube rolling in a PrimeLuna preamp

Lee, believe it or not, I went this route with my Primaluna preamp. I mucked around for weeks with NOS tubes.

Guess what? It sounded the best with the stock tubes that came with it. I asked Kevin Deal about that. He said (what I always say) that they voice the gear with the same tubes that they sell it with so it should sound the best that way...

Whether or not the same applies to their CD players I don't know.

txcoastal1 · June 2017

Overall it just strange to me. Couple pairs of Paradigms I've heard, I would have never thought of them as laid back. I like the Rega CDP, and the Plinius. Just wondering if it's the synergy as a whole. Do you have any local friends with another integrated, or a system you can take your speakers to, to get another opinion.

https://www.paradigm.com/downloads/UAV_S4_C3_Servo_Review.pdf

The only significant aberration in these
measurements is the relatively high tweeter
output from both speakers. The curves
suggest that they may sound forward in
the upper registers. FM did note this in
his listening tests. The relatively smooth HF
response (apart from the overall elevated
level) suggests that it might be corrected by
simply padding down the tweeter by 2-3 dB,
or using a judicious hand on a treble control,
without obscuring the impressive sound that
Fred reports.
– Thomas J. Norton

jolson72 · June 2017

txcoastal1 : I will try that tomorrow. I have a Rega Mira integrated. I'll hook it up to the Paradigms and see if the sound quality, or highs, is that different.....

Also, from the review you posted: It seems that most people use the S4 speakers in a home theater environment. The speakers are every bit as good for use in a 2 channel setup, correct?

txcoastal1 · June 2017

I'd rather use them in 2chnl than HT...IMHO

...don't be discouraged, sometimes no matter how good a speaker is, it may not be your cup-o-tea

jolson72 · June 2017

TX, thanks for the response, again. It was a huge jump going from a Rega Mira, Rega Planet and Rega speakers to the Plinius, Primaluna and Paradigm speakers. It might take me a bit of time to get used to the difference. This is the first time I have had such an expensive, revealing system. So, I might just be hearing a lot more.....

Also, what are your thoughts on power cables? When I bought my system, it came with a quite expensive Siltech Ruby Hill powercord.... Seems like I should sell it, and put the money to use somewhere else.... There are a few Audioquest powercables I got as well, which I'll probably stick with. Fun to listen and try to figure it out, however.

txcoastal1 · June 2017

I am a cable proponent, but I do not make recommendations unless you have the same gear as I. I have a tub of cables from different manufactures, some expensive some not so much. Have had to many surprises, and use the cables for final tweaks.

Been hanging with to many people playing with cables and found cables work in mine but not yours and vice-versa.

At this point I don't think cables are your issue. I think change is...but it sounds like you still have your original gear so swapping around is kinda the fun part till you get the system dialed in. Sounds like a good time if you are just hanging out for 4th of July weekend

tratliff · June 2017

Sometimes such a dramatic change is difficult to get use to.

I would give it some quality time and then make a decision on whats next.

Makes me wonder if its just the complete change in house sound and what your previous system was capable of.

Listen to some music that you know well. Don't compare it to the old system but listen for what the new system brings. You may find that the laid back or flat vocals are more to your liking once it settles in.

tonyb · June 2017

Seems to me....the S4's and that brand are not laid back in the top end. I would suspect since he bought them used maybe something got damaged in transit. Maybe they've been worked on before and the previous owner changed some values in the crossover to tame them down to his liking.

I might take a look see at the crossovers and see if they are stock, been worked on, or if anything looks burnt up, out of whack. Put your ear to the tweeters at low volume and make sure they are working, they may not even be the originals.

jolson72 · June 2017

Interesting.......... I guess I figured an expensive tube C.D. player would vastly sound better than my Rega Planet C.D. player. Did a sound test today. Same amp, same cables, same speakers..... The Rega C.D. player has more top end, and more information than the PrimaLuna C.D. player. My wife agreed that the Rega player sounds better. I guess in my system, the player that is 1/3 the price works better. Surprising. Next will be trying a Kimber PBJ, Rega Couple and Siltech SQ-110 interconnect comparison to see which I prefer there.

mikeyb128 · June 2017

jolson72 wrote: »

Interesting.......... I guess I figured an expensive tube C.D. player would vastly sound better than my Rega Planet C.D. player. Did a sound test today. Same amp, same cables, same speakers..... The Rega C.D. player has more top end, and more information than the PrimaLuna C.D. player. My wife agreed that the Rega player sounds better. I guess in my system, the player that is 1/3 the price works better. Surprising. Next will be trying a Kimber PBJ, Rega Couple and Siltech SQ-110 interconnect comparison to see which I prefer there.

Although I have no experience with the PrimaLuna, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion so quickly. Some tube rolling could benefit that CD player, it could have tired tubes, or some cheapie Chinese or Russian tubes. I would experiment with tube rolling, be careful though, it's addicting and fun.

txcoastal1 · June 2017

Rega has been building quality CDP's much longer than Prima Luna has even existed.

There might be a higher signal output voltage than the PL also.

jolson72 · June 2017

Ugh. Don't know that I have any interest in tube rolling, etc. I just want to turn it on and enjoy it. And honestly, I like the top loading / non mechanical nature of the Rega better than a tray. Maybe I'll upgrade the Planet to a Jupiter and be happy? Also, it's amazing how close the Rega Mira sounds to the Plinius 9200. Says a lot about the quality of Rega equipment, I guess.

kharp1 · June 2017

I've owned several pair of Paradigm speakers over the years (still have 2 pair I use outdoors) and a laid back mid to high end is not remotely how I would describe them. I might would roll a set up tubes (not sure what the Primaluna uses) that are geared more for pronounced uppers an see what that does for you.

codycatalist · June 2017

I agree, try some different tubes and see what you like. We all would like plug n play but switching out your tube is as simple as pulling out and putting a new one in. I have had some tubes that seem completely veiled and others bright and detailed in the highs.

machone · June 2017

codycatalist wrote: »

We all would like plug n play

tonyb · June 2017

jolson72 wrote: »

Ugh. Don't know that I have any interest in tube rolling,

That's a shame, then I'd suggest not owning any tubed gear as rolling comes with the territory. The whole purpose of rolling tubes is to find the sound you like and synergy with your system. Sell it and stick with Solid State gear.

Since you like Rega, move up their ladder. Though I don't know why in todays age anyone would want to drop big bucks on a cdp. I might be more inclined to go digital, have all your music at your fingertips, and be able to stream it all over the house for the same price as one higher end cdp.

If a cdp floats your boat though, buy used and save some coin.

decal · June 2017

tratliff wrote: »

Sometimes such a dramatic change is difficult to get use to.

I would give it some quality time and then make a decision on whats next.

Makes me wonder if its just the complete change in house sound and what your previous system was capable of.

Listen to some music that you know well. Don't compare it to the old system but listen for what the new system brings. You may find that the laid back or flat vocals are more to your liking once it settles in.

^^^^^ This ^^^^^

Jaybeez · June 2017

Lots of variables, including gear, cables and other factors. Better gear reveals flaws in recordings that you may not have heard before. I noticed a bit more mid-range to familiar recordings when I upgraded to a Plinius integrated (9100). If this holds true for your model, you may sense a bit less high end "sparkle" because the balance between mid and high that you are accustomed to has changed. I'd give it some time then decide, as noted previously. I'm at the point where I almost can't listen to anything unless it's ruler flat, in contrast to 30+ years of listening to gear in what my sound engineer buddies call the EQ "smile".

billbillw · June 2017

I'd take the advice above from Tony and really check the speakers out for proper function. All the Paradigm I've heard are not laid back. Could be bad tweeter, bad xover. I really don't think cable swaps will get you where you want with this system.

Although...looking at this review and frequency response, maybe they are a bit laid back through the upper midrange...
https://www.paradigm.com/downloads/UAV_S4_C3_Servo_Review.pdf

deronb1 · June 2017

Polarity?

new system - vocals a bit subdued............. (ideas)

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