12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

ZLTFUL · April 2017

I like the part where the guy who uses an SRT system in this day and age calls others' views into question. Home theater (and professional theaters) have come a *LONG* way since the mid 90s. It's like the 62 250GTO calling the 2014 Enzo worthless even though the Enzo will drive circles around its capabilities (See, I too can make obscure and complete inane references that have nothing to do with the topic).

Fact, look up "dielectric conditioning". It is what happens the the dielectric in an electrical conductor (that's what speaker wire is in case you aren't grasping the concept) as a charge passes through it.

Anyway, obfuscate away. You claim to be objective but you are clearly being subjective when you believe tests on one side of the fence but discount the ones on the other side.

You, @Gatecrasher are saying that *your* not being able to hear a difference is the end all, be all of the discussion. That right there says all we need to know about your opinion (because that is exactly what it is). You automatically discount everyone else's experiences because they aren't in line with your own. That's what makes the naysayers so amusing.

You postulate that there are studies out there that refute Raife's own studies. And I will equally argue that there are just as many that back up his research. So what makes one side right and the other wrong?

The difference between the "believers" and the naysayers? The "believers" aren't trying to disprove the naysayers, they simply want the naysayers to try it for themselves instead of discounting it out of hand as they are wont to do.

Anyway, thank you for trying to protect me from "wasting" my money. I will remember to do the same the next time I see you post up about a good deal on an SRT component. I will save you from wasting your money by directing you to much more capable speakers than your antiquated SRTs. Whether you want my advice or not. After all, turnabout is fair play.

befuddle · April 2017

Yet another thread that has become somewhat obscurely informative,but more so entertainingly interesting given to the fact of the rather simplicity of the original posters question.
From what should have been a relatively straight forward question,has in it 10 page convolution addressed the virtues of expenditure on quality spk cable vs wire in relation to its use in a mid low market system.Gave rise to the merits of particular brand loyalties and cable tier reasons,Touched on the subject of shaving and it apparatus,Somewhat conservatively condemned Audioholics web site for their knowledge base in the hobby.Debated the value and need of blind testing in resolving possible bias issues in product evaluations,And once again reiterated the somewhat moot point that cable matters from a perspective that from what i gathered wasn't even in question,and that has now somehow become of relevance once again!
As to the originally posted question-Not being a audiophile or even a avid enthusiast i may not be equipped to satisfactorily answer given my level of knowledge and expertise,But from what i have read-on the subject using a thicker gauge from a reputable manufacturer using quality construction material may derive in laymen's term a sightly fuller clearer snd and a deeper bass extension.The value of this limited increase would naturally need to be determined by the expense time and difficulty of the change over,
However if the amp and frt spks are of decent quality and your not limited in amp placement by room layout, esthetics and or user functionality it would be advisable to move the amp nearer to the frt spks to allow for shorter wire runs and allow for the opportunity to use performance cable instead of wire.Also if the amp has pre out jacks it would be recommendable to use a decent quality power amp for the frt spks to greatly improve the musical performance as apposed to the av amp alone.However in cable choice some diligence to research recommendations may be prudent as the level of performance increase is acquainted to the design construction best suited to match the system used and may prove to cost restrictive to obtain the best results.Therefore it could potentially prove taxing to find a set of cables within a given price point that will allow for the best performance of the given system

ZLTFUL · April 2017

Gatecrasher wrote: »

rednedtugent wrote: »

Then you are truly lucky GC because this stuff gets expensive fast.

Well I try to be as open-minded and objective as possible. I'm an engineer and a statistics geek and strive to take as much of the emotion out of the decision-making process as possible by letting the numbers do the talking.

It's nothing personal here. Show me the data.

Here, start here. A few simple articles on dielectric conditioning. Unless of course, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers isn't considered a viable resource by you. I mean they are no Roger Russell and all they do is provide the code that electrical and electronics engineers are supposed to adhere to...but they do have some OK info now and then.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=solid+dielectric+conditioning&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBp5-VvZvTAhXH34MKHb73Aa8QgQMIGDAA

http://www.ieee.org/searchresults/index.html?cx=006539740418318249752:f2h38l7gvis&cof=FORID:11&qp=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=dielectric+conditioning

mrloren · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Hi mrloren:

I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way about your set-ups. What you have is more than plenty to enjoy the music and the movies and have a great listening experience. Enjoy!

it's cool

txcoastal1 · April 2017

befuddle wrote: »

Therefore it could potentially prove taxing to find a set of cables within a given price point that will allow for the best performance of the given system

All mentioned above is basically the jist.
If you are looking for good quality and have purchased good quality gear you are probably at bliss. The ones of us who bark, self included have gone to the extreme as anyone who takes any hobby serious.

I'm in electronics by trade, have always been a gadget freak, I even take it into my hunting and fishing. No different than any other hobby enthusiasts.

It's just toys we like to play with and like to squeeze every drop of juice out of the orange.

Gatecrasher · April 2017

ZLTFUL wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

rednedtugent wrote: »

Then you are truly lucky GC because this stuff gets expensive fast.

Well I try to be as open-minded and objective as possible. I'm an engineer and a statistics geek and strive to take as much of the emotion out of the decision-making process as possible by letting the numbers do the talking.

It's nothing personal here. Show me the data.

Here, start here. A few simple articles on dielectric conditioning. Unless of course, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers isn't considered a viable resource by you. I mean they are no Roger Russell and all they do is provide the code that electrical and electronics engineers are supposed to adhere to...but they do have some OK info now and then.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=solid+dielectric+conditioning&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBp5-VvZvTAhXH34MKHb73Aa8QgQMIGDAA

http://www.ieee.org/searchresults/index.html?cx=006539740418318249752:f2h38l7gvis&cof=FORID:11&qp=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=dielectric+conditioning

I used to belong to the IEEE in college. I belonged to the SME for a while too and was chapter president of the SPE too. I majored in Electrical Engineering for a year before I switched to Mechanical Engineering. I was also a Ham Radio operator at age 13 so i know a little bit about electronics. This is a better response than your previous ones though.

However interesting these articles you Googled appear to be, this really doesn't appear to translate to an audible difference in audio cables. When I presented the link that you automatically discounted (because it didn't fit your belief), I was only demonstrating that for every hocus-pocus article out there claiming that super-expensive audio cables provide a night and day difference in audio quality, there are just as many that say otherwise - not that the article was any kind of definitive proof of anything. I'm still on the fence as to whether there is even a slight amount of difference between similar gauge copper wires for audio cables.

Like you I want to believe (I truly do) but have a hard time basing my belief on faith alone since my ears can't really hear the difference. If there is a difference it can't be much.

mrloren · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Hi mrloren:

I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way about your set-ups. What you have is more than plenty to enjoy the music and the movies and have a great listening experience. Enjoy!

oh and your not going to offer me an A21 and some kimber cable to go with it...

This hobby is all about the big dollars you can spend to get that sound. Yes there are deals on used stuff too but once again used can cost a lot, or at least a lot to me. Then I am limited to my family room for my HT, it's on a 15amp circuit so after money that is my 2nd limit.

Some spend thousands and never hit the bliss, others spend a few and get to what they like.

BlueFox · April 2017

Gatecrasher wrote: »

. Like you I want to believe (I truly do) but have a hard time basing my belief on faith alone since my ears can't really hear the difference. If there is a difference it can't be much.

This sentence appears to be the crux of the matter. I, and others, don't have any problem hearing a difference. Of course, that implies one has purchased something better than the current cable, taken the time to let it settle in, and actually listen to it over a period of time, and at varying time in the day and night. Then the question becomes, is the difference worth the extra money?

So, if you can't hear a difference then good for you, but don't try to drag others down to your level by assuming your ears are the gold standard, or thinking your system is the most revealing gear around. There are a lot of factors interacting here, and that might be why you are having a difficult time hearing a difference.

Gatecrasher · April 2017

BlueFox wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

. Like you I want to believe (I truly do) but have a hard time basing my belief on faith alone since my ears can't really hear the difference. If there is a difference it can't be much.

This sentence appears to be the crux of the matter. I, and others, don't have any problem hearing a difference. Of course, that implies one has purchased something better than the current cable, taken the time to let it settle in, and actually listen to it over a period of time, and at varying time in the day and night. Then the question becomes, is the difference worth the extra money?

So, if you can't hear a difference then good for you, but don't try to drag others down to your level by assuming your ears are the gold standard, or thinking your system is the most revealing gear around. There are a lot of factors interacting here, and that might be why you are having a difficult time hearing a difference.

So let me see if I have this right. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is trying to "drag you down".

Let's not get overly dramatic here. It's only audio equipment. It's not like I'm telling you that you worship a false god or anything that extreme.

Can't anyone ever disagree with the bully pulpit on this forum?

You guys are really something I'll tell you.

lol

nooshinjohn · April 2017

Gatecrasher wrote: »

BlueFox wrote: »

Gatecrasher wrote: »

. Like you I want to believe (I truly do) but have a hard time basing my belief on faith alone since my ears can't really hear the difference. If there is a difference it can't be much.

This sentence appears to be the crux of the matter. I, and others, don't have any problem hearing a difference. Of course, that implies one has purchased something better than the current cable, taken the time to let it settle in, and actually listen to it over a period of time, and at varying time in the day and night. Then the question becomes, is the difference worth the extra money?

So, if you can't hear a difference then good for you, but don't try to drag others down to your level by assuming your ears are the gold standard, or thinking your system is the most revealing gear around. There are a lot of factors interacting here, and that might be why you are having a difficult time hearing a difference.

So let me see if I have this right. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is trying to "drag you down".

Let's not get overly dramatic here. It's only audio equipment. It's not like I'm telling you that you worship a false god or anything that extreme.

Can't anyone ever disagree with the bully pulpit on this forum?

You guys are really something I'll tell you.

lol

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

lightman1 · April 2017

I feel a thread kill coming on. I'll curse and post nude pics of curvy women.

lightman1 · April 2017

Look at the teats on that one!

mhardy6647 · April 2017

irrelevant post - sorry.

motorhead43026 · April 2017

I see the Sausagenator (Ken S.) deleted my shaking sausage GFI.

sgmsmg · April 2017

This is a fun read.

pitdogg2 · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Some of the wire/cable vendors I am considering are: Blue Jeans Cables, Monoprice, and Emotiva.

Of these 3 I'd advise the blue jean cables.
My company buys from monoprice exclusively. I can honestly say they have far more defective products than effective products. Of the products that are effective they have no longevity.
I know nothing about Emotiva's wire products.

tonyb · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Emotiva has a similar line of cables/wire as Blue Jeans Cables, but not as full a catalog. They have a similar target audience. Both sell to buyers looking for a good value, not those looking for cut rate products. Emotiva has a loyal following of customers that have bought their amps, etc. I would expect their products to be similar in quality to Blue Jeans Cable. Part of the problem for Emotiva is that their core business is amps. Each different line of business is a new challenge. Can they walk and chew bubble gum at the same time (do other things right besides what they do best)? Blue Jeans Cable core business is wire and cables.

A successful business often is built upon repeat sales to the same customers. Those customers are prime candidates for this sales pitch, "Oh, by the way, did you know that we also sell cables that are a good value?" This would be leveraging the customer base. It costs much more to get new customers than to sell other stuff to those that have said yes already.

I would also choose BJ cables over the others mentioned, but....I wouldn't be looking for any great benefits sound wise. Build quality will be better though over Monoprice. Emo might just be buying someone elses cable and slapping their name to it, who knows. It's a practice many do in audio....and not just with cables.

"Good value" doesn't necessarily equate to good sound.....especially at those price points. Walmart is considered a good value too, but when quality is of concern, you'd go somewhere else.

The 3 companies you mentioned cater to the entry level crowd. That's the base their marketing is geared towards. Emotiva has amps, processors and dacs all for those entry level separates crowd just moving up from a receiver.

That said, many here have moved on from the entry level stuff which is why they aren't held in such high regard. Some haven't too, and that's all well and good if that fits your needs. Audio is a progression, not a black and white scenario, that we each try to accomplish at our own pace in ways we can all afford.

Most of us have that audio T-shirt, "Been there, done that". We've been in the same spot some others have just starting to explore better audio. Our purpose is not to get anyone to spend more than they are accustomed to, but to avoid the same mistakes and wasted money we all did on our own progressions in audio. Our opinions are based on decades of experiences, some different than others obviously, but we all draw on the same thing.....experience.

.....and with that said, get yourself some, experience that is. You don't even have to buy a truck load of junk to find out. Get yourself to some audio shows, Polk member get togethers, etc. Figure out what you can afford, buy used and demo stuff to save a buck. When you get dressed in the morning, hopefully you look in the mirror and assess the way you look. You do the same with the sound coming from your system and assess what you perceive as the weakest link. Then move forward and change a few things just like you'd change a tie or a belt that didn't match when you looked in the mirror. Audio doesn't need to be hard, you just have to toss out pre-conceived notions and keep an open mind, try a few things for yourself, hear a few things on others systems.

The internet is full of articles both for and against cables. I'll bet you can find articles for or against just about anything, that's the nature of the beast. There is only one opinion that counts though, and that's yours, and you can't form your own opinion unless you try a few things yourself.

tonyb · April 2017

BTW....I haven't seen any one of the cable naysayers sign up for Skips Demo thread. Not a one...this is a great opportunity to get your ears on something different for little cost. I'm sure you'd have to pay shipping to the next person in line, but that's a small price to pay to get your ears on some different cables in your own system.

K_M · April 2017

vmaxer wrote: »

Everything matters. Including cables.

except......... bias, expectations, and post purchase rationalization?

I am not sure you can have it both ways.
Everything matters, but just conveniently not the things one thinks does not matter?

K_M · April 2017

Again guys, Burden of proof lies on the one making an extraordinary claim.

"I built a rocket that can fly to the moon....."

I would think I would have to provide some proof of this right?
Not expect you guys to "prove a negative"

Thats sorta what we are dealing with.

txcoastal1 · April 2017

They test rockets, so maybe test some cables?

mrloren · April 2017

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

mrloren wrote: »

DonnerUndBlitzen wrote: »

Hi mrloren:

I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way about your set-ups. What you have is more than plenty to enjoy the music and the movies and have a great listening experience. Enjoy!

oh and your not going to offer me an A21 and some kimber cable to go with it...

This hobby is all about the big dollars you can spend to get that sound. Yes there are deals on used stuff too but once again used can cost a lot, or at least a lot to me. Then I am limited to my family room for my HT, it's on a 15amp circuit so after money that is my 2nd limit.

Some spend thousands and never hit the bliss, others spend a few and get to what they like.

Hi Mrloren:

I would love to have an A21, then I would need to get this or that to go with it, then I would discover that that thing over there needs upgrading, it would start the snow-ball effect that rolls all the way down hill into the poor house. Many people into audio seem to suffer from upgrade itis (a strong, insatiable desire to, forever and a day, not be happy with what is better than 99.999% of what the people on planet earth listen to and instead to forever and a day be looking for that "other man's grass" that is always greener). Truth be told, no matter what I get and what I spend, there is always something better. Hence the $50,000 speaker cables sold at The Cable Company. I'm on a mid-fi quest and will be tickled pink to have a great sounding mid-fi system. Mid fi has improved tremendously since the early 80s and it is more affordable than then.

Basically we all need to learn to love what we already have. You should check "stereo" off of your life-accomplishments list and use the discretionary spending with discretion on other stuff. People are now putting 200 to 300 thousand miles on their cars, try to put some serious miles on the BST (blood, sweat and tears sweat equity) that you have rolled into your audio equipment. Some people seem to buy a new this or that every year and all their audio gear gets sold with the "low hours" description on it. 5 to 8 years or even longer on a nice Marantz AVR is not unreasonable.

I do like my current system, much better than it was a year ago. just a few things left on my upgrade list.

#1 new sub VTF3-MK5
#2 Oppo, will be looking for a good used 93 or 103.
#3 and this will be just a random chance. Next time Fry's has the MC80 in-ceiling speakers for $50 I would like to replace all 4 of my in-ceiling speakers.

Top it off with some minor upgrades,
change the GLS brass locking banana's for Audioquest silver
replace my very old HDMI cables for some new Audioquest cables.

K_M · April 2017

txcoastal1 wrote: »

They test rockets, so maybe test some cables?

I think the part we are all dancing around.....

Someone that expects to hear no difference may tend to hear no difference.
Someone that expects to hear a difference may tend to hear a difference.

As long as the participant is aware, the answer may tend to be right or wrong.

vmaxer · April 2017

K_M wrote: »

vmaxer wrote: »

Everything matters. Including cables.

except......... bias, expectations, and post purchase rationalization?

I am not sure you can have it both ways.
Everything matters, but just conveniently not the things one thinks does not matter?

Everything matters......

Some may matter more than others but everything matters.

I also blind test all CD's and albums I purchase, you know - to remove bias....

Can't tell if it is SRV, Clapton, BB - you know??

Gatecrasher · April 2017

nooshinjohn wrote: »

You admit to not being able to hear a difference to something you've never tried and then attack those that can. What i find astonishing is that you would want to hang out with us when it would be so easy to take your little keyboard and go somewhere else. Plenty of other forums out there for you to troll.

So you are saying because I can't hear a difference between audio cables I am a troll and should quit the forum then?

ZLTFUL wrote: »

I like the part where the guy who uses an SRT system in this day and age calls others' views into question. Home theater (and professional theaters) have come a *LONG* way since the mid 90s. It's like the 62 250GTO calling the 2014 Enzo worthless even though the Enzo will drive circles around its capabilities (See, I too can make obscure and complete inane references that have nothing to do with the topic).

Anyway, thank you for trying to protect me from "wasting" my money. I will remember to do the same the next time I see you post up about a good deal on an SRT component. I will save you from wasting your money by directing you to much more capable speakers than your antiquated SRTs. Whether you want my advice or not. After all, turnabout is fair play.

So I guess you are claiming that a difference in speaker cables isn't discernible on older Polk speakers? So in your opinion what year Polks do I need to get? Or do I need to get rid of Polk altogether and buy some other brand?

Also, I must have missed the section where I personally attacked you and said your equipment is junk.

Not agreeing with someone isn't a personal attack. It's my own opinion based on my own experience and other information just like you have you have yours. I'm skeptical about stuff like this that's all (and I am not the only one who is).

12 Gauge vs 16 Gauge??

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