Damn it........... Cables matter!!

13

Comments

  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    The thing that gets me about the RA cables on my Pass XP-20 is they just carry DC and ground between the power supply and preamp. I bet if one measured both cables their multimeter would show 12v and 5v DC each time (or whatever DC is being used). Yet the RA cable makes a very obvious sonic improvement. LOL. A great example of how cabling can effect audio. I wish I was in college again. This audio cable conundrum would be a great PH.D. subject. :)
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,704
    Agreed Bud and additional proof that measurements do not tell all.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    So i got to thinking. The original jumpers are kinda weak (top) and probably should be replaced. Sooooo......... a nice 10 Gage jumper can't hurt(bottom). We'll give this a rip.

    3mrszgjgi1ru.jpg
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    I'm sure they'll do better, but normally the jumpers should be of the same brand/quality as your speaker cables. For instance, if you had single runs of MIT speaker cables, you'd use their jumpers, which is almost like buying a bi-wired cable. If you use different branded jumpers, your not getting the full effect of the speaker cables.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    Didn't know that. I will look for AQ jumpers. I figure these have to be better than what was there for now.
    Thanks.
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    I'm sure they are better than what you had in there, but without the AQ jumpers your not transferring that same sound signature to the top half of your speakers. See what I'm sayin' ?
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 10,042
    I really should get some MIT jumpers. The only thing I had on hand I could use when Larry dropped off the SDA's was rat shack speaker cable.
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,288
    @F1nut @BlueFox would that work on my Joule bewteen the power supply and the preamp?

    Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300, Audioquest Thunderbird Zero Speaker Cable, Tyler Highland H2, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    If it uses a straight through DB-25 connector then it would work. Whether it sounds better or not is unknown. Google Revelation Audio and see what they offer. They will make custom cables if they know the connector type and pin out.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,288
    Thanks I will check them out. Its funny I never thought about upgrading that cord until I saw you talking about it here but, it makes sense. I have Cardaa going to the power supply but the stock cable from the power supply to the Lap-150A
    Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 300, Audioquest Thunderbird Zero Speaker Cable, Tyler Highland H2, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,704
    Bud is right, Brad will custom make a cable(s) for you. Mine are a pair of SpeakOn and the other is a 5 pin connection.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Joey_V
    Joey_V Posts: 8,505
    I tried to avoid the who jumper ordeal because it's near impossible to find the exact cord for the speaker cable in question. For example:

    Audioquest jumpers are psc+ in hyperlitz, however it is not silver as the wel nor is it same gauge as the wel nor is it DBS like the wel.

    So I was very specific about looking for a biwire version at the speaker end (called single-biwire).

    But that goes to show you the pain of even the jumper.
    Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    Yes I do. The hunt is on.
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS
  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    tonyb wrote: »
    I'm sure they are better than what you had in there, but without the AQ jumpers your not transferring that same sound signature to the top half of your speakers. See what I'm sayin' ?

    Yes I do. The hunt is on for new jumpers.
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS
  • CH46E
    CH46E Posts: 3,521
    I used to work a a Audio Quest retailer and got a very good discount on them. I have always been pretty happy with my AQ Diamond Backs. I also have Type 8 CV speaker cables but since my room redesign I cant use them anymore :(

    Marrow Audio seems to have some good reviews on thier power cables.

    I have already ran a new 10 guage line from the box to a outlet for all the equipment.
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,230
    crashb4 wrote: »
    MIT interconnects arrived today. Got a chance to do a little listening tonight. Immediate impression: further clarity in upper end frequencies. Most notable however is that the cymbals have moved from the background and are now front and center. Their clarity is remarkable. I also hear much greater depth in vocals with heavy reverb. It's much easier to hear and is very clear. All in all, a nice improvement.
    Hello again, crashb4. Now that you have had some time with them, albeit not much, have you noticed any further change? Is it subtle? More of the lower notes shining through with less congestion? More impact? Mid bass clearing up a tad bit more? Top end a little clearer?

    Do any of the aforementioned sound better or are they a tad bit mixed or even worse than your initial impressions?

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    The MITs are still providing the clarity that was noted earlier. Overall detail is excellent. The largest improvement came from the AQ speaker cables. The addition of the 10 Gage jumpers reduced some of the low end punch but it is still quite good. I believe that an amp upgrade (looking at Krell) is in order and will help with this. I run my preamp dead flat at all times. Prior to my latest electronics, I used to run an equalizer in my systems. No need for one now. What is more remarkable than the details that I hear and didn't know were there is the things that i thought were there but weren't. I have found that using the EQ allowed me to alter the sound into something that it wasn't. It was hard to get used to listening to actual recordings. Sometimes it's like listening to a song for the first time. I still have a ways to go with my equipment but i think that i am headed in the right direction. Thanks to everyone here. Your experience and advice is a tremendous help.
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,474
    crashb4 wrote: »
    The addition of the 10 Gage jumpers reduced some of the low end punch but it is still quite good.

    Get better spades. Those in the picture are terrible. I have used them, I had a set of 10 I gave to others to try and all came back and told me the same thing. In a nut shell they took away for the signal. I'd bet the original jumpers pass better signal.

  • Yes, cables matter.
    The questions really are, how much, which ones matter most, and
    what are you willing to spend to get them.
  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    edited January 2017
    Yes, cables matter.
    The questions really are, how much, which ones matter most, and
    what are you willing to spend to get them.

    That is the $64K question. Looks like a lot of trial and error. What's worse is that replacing a piece of electronics can render previous selections useless. Used cables for my budget. They can be had for as little $0.10 on the dollar. Plus they are already burned in. Much more palatable than new retail.
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS
  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Get better spades. Those in the picture are terrible. I have used them, I had a set of 10 I gave to others to try and all came back and told me the same thing. In a nut shell they took away for the signal. I'd bet the original jumpers pass better signal.

    What did you replace them with. The current spades actually fit on the larger Polk posts.
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,230
    crashb4 wrote: »
    The addition of the 10 Gage jumpers reduced some of the low end punch but it is still quite good.
    Okay, thanks for answering. Your statement here has me a little confused. Please allow me to clarify what it is you are trying to say. I can think of two possibilities.

    The first is that even though they are a thicker, supposedly "upgraded" set of jumpers, the sound has been hampered for one reason or another. If this is the case, lose them. Adding a deficiency to your rig should never be allowed in my opinion. Even if the loss is slight. Forward, never backwards I say.

    The second is this. I have seen people who have observed a "loss of mid-bass" before with cables. In this case, this possibly might not be a bad thing. Hear me out. There have been instances to where folks get a different cable or amplifier, perhaps a different sub and they somewhat share the same observations as you might be trying to tell us about. A "loss".

    The loss you *may* be experiencing *might* just be a more accurate reproductive effort. With the loss of an overponderance of upper bass and mid bass frequencies, their may be a loss of what you are describing BUT with that comes less of a "mask" to those and overall frequencies. This will add texture to voices, subtle nuances to things you are familiar with or even things that were previously masked by the overponderance.

    If this is the case, listen to some tracks you are intimately familiar with. Does the new jumper offer more musical information to come through....or is it literally as described, a true loss?

    If it's a loss, my advice would be to get rid of it and look elsewhere for an actual improvement or be happy with what you had. If it's the second possibility, listen to some music and decide whether or not the changes offer more than what you previously heard. Only you know your system and that is up to you to decide.

    I will say this, many seasoned audiophiles will hear a Magico speaker for the first time and think that the bass is "light". Well, it most certainly is not. What they are experiencing is for the first time, cabinet resonances that are now gone. They are getting a more "pure" reproductive effort with noises that are omitted. Goinf from a Legacy Audio speaker to a Magico (for instance) may be a bit of a shock because they have gotten used to hearing cabinet resonances over the years and they are not used to Magico's almost nill cabinet resonances.

    Another example would be someone who has owned a Cerwin-Vega speaker for many years. Then they walk into a store and experience a B&W speaker for the first time. They may comment, "Where's the bass?". Oh, it's there but it is bass that they are not used too. They have been accustomed to hearing cabinet resonances, "boomy" bass and low end, slow thumps for so long, this is what they expect bass to sound like.

    'Knaw mean? Like I said, only you will be able to know this as we can not listen to your rig. I just wanted to share with you some possibilities so you can make your own decision as to whther or not the jumpers are a good choice to keep or get rid of as fast as Rosie O'Donnell wanting to take you to where the magic happens.

    To the rest of the Polk Audio forum, it sure is nice to communicate and share experiences without the usual anti- cable crowd coming in and polluting the thread. It's refreshing to say the least.

    Tom

    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,053
    edited January 2017
    treitz3 wrote: »

    To the rest of the Polk Audio forum, it sure is nice to communicate and share experiences without the usual anti- cable crowd coming in and polluting the thread. It's refreshing to say the least.

    Tom

    The main instigator in those efforts is no longer allowed the privilege of being a member here. It is refreshing!

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    Well stated Tom, in the end though I don't think much of us chase the "accurate" reproduction as much as we just simply cater to our own preferences.

    An example of that is some love that boom-boom a car audio system can have and want to replicate that in their home systems. Certainly not accurate, put pleases the owner. Extreme example, but personal preferences to me anyway hold sway over what is truly accurate or not. As long as you like what you hear, rock on.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    Honestly.... I haven't had the listening time to determine the exact nature of the change. Initial impression was a reduction in punch, but i haven't put ears on it for long enough to truly evaluate the overall sound. In the next few days i will spend more time with some of my go to tracks and do some critical listening. I agree that one is not to settle for a change that is not better. I will scrap the jumpers in a heart beat if the results are not positive. Thanks for your input treitz3. I feel the same way about moving forward.
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 24,474
    crashb4 wrote: »
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Get better spades. Those in the picture are terrible. I have used them, I had a set of 10 I gave to others to try and all came back and told me the same thing. In a nut shell they took away for the signal. I'd bet the original jumpers pass better signal.

    What did you replace them with. The current spades actually fit on the larger Polk posts.

    I replaced with quality banana's. Those spades unscrew from the bottom correct? The spade is gold plated zinc the bottom is all zinc and that is where the signal starts.

    There are much better spades out there search and you will find. Audioquest, Cardas to name a few.
  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    pitdogg2 wrote: »

    I replaced with quality banana's. Those spades unscrew from the bottom correct? The spade is gold plated zinc the bottom is all zinc and that is where the signal starts.

    I believe that you are correct on these spades. I will check them and spend some more time with them. If a spade replace is a no go, i will scrap them.
    Thanks.
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS
  • crashb4
    crashb4 Posts: 222
    Impressive read on this subject. This may help some get a better understanding of the design goals and considerations that relate to cable manufacturing.

    http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/aq_cable_theory.pdf
    Schiit Freya+, Krell KAV-250a, R-Pi network streamer, 8Tb NAS, Thorens TD-145 MKIII with Ortofon 2M red, Polk: Monitor-10B, SDA-1A, SDA-SRS