Why would they?

TroyD
TroyD Posts: 13,077
edited August 2004 in Vintage Speakers
You know, we've been talking ad naseum about Polk bringing back the SDA line.

Personally, I don't think it will happen. Ever.

Why?

Why should they?

Look at history, Polk went to CC to break in to the mass market. Now the LSi's are in Tweeter, a little more high tone but still, a mass marketer.

We talk about Polk going back to it's audiophile roots but (and I mean this with no disrespect) the ulitmate goal here is to move boxes out the door. That seems to be the ulitmate goal here.

Color me cynical, but that's the way I see it.

BDT
I plan for the future. - F1Nut
Post edited by TroyD on

Comments

  • jdhdiggs
    jdhdiggs Posts: 4,305
    edited August 2004
    I agree with you Troy, there is no market outside of those on this forum and a few others that might be swayed, but I really don't imagine them selling more than a hundred pairs a year if they did re-emerge and I can't imagine that would be cost effective.

    That said, bring em back anyway...
    There is no genuine justice in any scheme of feeding and coddling the loafer whose only ponderable energies are devoted wholly to reproduction. Nine-tenths of the rights he bellows for are really privileges and he does nothing to deserve them. We not only acquired a vast population of morons, we have inculcated all morons, old or young, with the doctrine that the decent and industrious people of the country are bound to support them for all time.-Menkin
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    edited August 2004
    Guys,

    Why does Apple do what they do? Why does Ducati do what they do? Both of those companies do it for a reason that is beyond the bottom dollar and that is Passion!!! If they did it for pure sales only they wouldn't still be around and I think Polk Audio still has that Passion. Think about it. What other CEO/President of a company Polks size would respond to a post in a forum? They are thinking about it or at least they were? The only thing left is the market study and a larger turn around in the economy. I for one think it is going to happen it may be a year or two off. But I think it is highly possible.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited August 2004
    I guess we can always hoard the old ones and tweak them up to the next level. I was ready to upgrade a few years ago. I even tried the LSi's just because I had the bug. Looks like we are just stuck with what is out there for now.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited August 2004
    Well, let me clarify my remarks.....

    If you look at the inside cover of any Polk speaker manual, Matt says that it's his goal to put great sound in as many homes as possible. If you take that at face value (and I do) then what Polk is doing makes sense and is consistent with that philosophy. The fact that moving that many boxes also means a huge pile of beads and shells I don't think is pure coincedence either.

    But with every choice there are two sides, if you chose the route that Polk has taken (and I'm not faulting or criticizing here) it makes it all the more difficult to to garner that boutique culture support. Let's take Paradigm or maybe to a lesser extent Magnepan (I think Paradigm is more comparable though), Pdime makes exceptional products at a damn good price as well. They have chosen to stick to the higher end shops. Now, I would say that the LSi is better in terms of performace than the Pdime Reference series however, walk in to a boutique shop which are you more likely to find? In the audiophile community (and I'm not saying that the audiophile community is all it's cracked up to be) which brand is more respected.

    My point isn't that audiophile approval means squat, in the grand scheme of consumer electronics, it means little, however, to introduce an SDA caliber speaker, it makes it tougher to gain acceptance of the crowd that has the cash to buy them.

    I also think that the goal of speakers today is different that it used to be. The big thing about SDA was the soundstaging. I think today's speakers are going in a different direction. Detail, flatter frequency response....I think those are the goals of many speaker designs ( I think due in no small part to B&W ) which are more multi-channel friendly. I honestly think that's the direction that the idustry is headed, consciously or not.

    Just my .02

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • ohskigod
    ohskigod Posts: 6,500
    edited August 2004
    maybe they could do a DIY kit of some time to save some manufacturing costs, could be orderred only via internet on the forum, just to make some die hard polkies happy. of course using components they allready use for other lines (LSi :) ).

    could be a stupid idea, but who knows
    Living Room 2 Channel -
    Schiit SYS Passive Pre. Jolida CD player. Songbird streamer. California Audio Labs Sigma II DAC, DIY 300as1/a1 Ice modules Class D amp. LSi15 with MM842 woofer upgrade, Nordost Blue Heaven and Unity interconnects.

    Upstairs 2 Channel Rig -
    Prometheus Ref. TVC passive pre, SAE A-205 Amp, Wiim pro streamer and Topping E50 DAC, California Audio Labs DX1 CD player, Von Schweikert VR3.5 speakers.

    Studio Rig - Scarlett 18i20(Gen3) DAW, Mac Mini, Aiyma A07 Max (BridgedX2), Totem Mites
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited August 2004
    Another thing is that sometimes once a company becomes profitable sometimes they do a project for the fun of it. You have to keep your employees interested and of course Matt probably gets his way now and then even if it is not profitable. :D
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • AsSiMiLaTeD
    AsSiMiLaTeD Posts: 11,722
    edited August 2004
    I guess I think of it a bit differently...

    If Polk is truly going for the bottom dollar and has been for years by selling in places like CC, then they should be more capable than ever to re-introduce the SDA line, as they now have the finances to back a venture like that.

    When you're starting off, creating something strange like the SDA is a huge risk, becuase you can lose your butt if it fails...

    But when you have a larger profit margin, I'd think you have more capability to recover if a project fails. I guess that's where I see Polk at...

    Would the SDA be a profitable line if brought back into production? We don't know, but honestly I doubt it. However, that profit directly related to a product only paints half the picture. I'm a financial analyst, this is what I do... When putting together an ROI for the SDA project, Polk not only considers direct profit, but must also consider indirect profits from things like:

    1 - Brand Recognition, by bringing back a high end speaker. Can a company be a mass-producer and still retain recognition in smaller, more specialized sects of an industry? Yes...sure it's hard, but it can be done, and Polk has an opportunity to be one of the first speaker makers to pull that off. They've begun to address this with their LSi...but an SDA effort would further their progress significantly... I think SDAs have enough reputation to outlive the 'gimmick speaker' tag they were once given.
    2 - How about just getting somebody hooked on the brand? More Tweeters and 'higher-end' stores are popping up more now, and more people are now going to those stores (we have the advances in TV development largely to thank for this). So a guy walks in to Tweeter and listens to the SDA and falls in love. One of two things is likely to happen - he'll either buy them, or if he can't afford them, fo looking for another pair of Polks becuase he now associates Polk with awesome sound. So maybe Polk doesn't get the SDA sale, but they get another sale becuase of the SDA anyway.
    3 - making us happy makes them money. I've never worked in audio, but have still brought at least 50 people (friends, family, and random customers in CC and Tweeter) to Polk. These are people who either already had something besides Polk, were looking at other brands, or were maybe unsure about Polk that now own a cumulative $100K in Polk Audio gear. Sure, $100K is a drop in the bucket, but how many of you guys have turned people on to Polk? The point is...keep your customer happy and they will keep you in business...

    If you take the things above and other factors into consideration, bringing back the SDA should be a good decision for Polk, but I guess that's for their analysts to decide...

    Hell, even if you did lose money on the deal, write it off as a capital loss and move on...

    Bottom line, Polk CAN bring back the SDA...question is WILL they?
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    edited August 2004
    Originally posted by TroyD
    Well, let me clarify my remarks.....



    I also think that the goal of speakers today is different that it used to be. The big thing about SDA was the soundstaging. I think today's speakers are going in a different direction. Detail, flatter frequency response....I think those are the goals of many speaker designs ( I think due in no small part to B&W ) which are more multi-channel friendly. I honestly think that's the direction that the idustry is headed, consciously or not.

    Just my .02

    BDT

    Troy,

    You make a lot of sense and I agree with you to a point especially on the last part. If it was all a bot flat response and no sound stage hen we would be listening to studio monitors. And high end audio sounds nothing like the sound in a recording studio. Second, with the move to SACD/DVD-A I think sound stage and the "You are there" effect is still alive in the high end they have just moved to a diffent place in the chain to get the effect.

    I do think you are right about Polk losing their credentials with the high end dealers. (I wont say the entire crowd because they would not have been in Stereophile if they had.) That is the one hurdle that is going to be hard to overcome. Which is why I think it was put to us in the context it was: Would we buy the direct without an audition? If Polk built them and some of the people on the board got them (Which will happen) who already own SDA's and they get good reviews, you know we are not going to stay quiet. We are going to let the world know. We are going to set up chances in our homes for people to hear them and those are going to be the boutiques.

    There are two things I am basing this on PolkFests (we are alraedy doing it) and Legacy Audio. Legacy Audio was 10 yrs old before their products started showing up in store. I don't think SDA's have to be everywhere for them to be successful. I just think they have to be made.

    Sorry for the long post.

    X
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • brettw22
    brettw22 Posts: 7,621
    edited August 2004
    Originally posted by Polkmaniac
    2 - How about just getting somebody hooked on the brand? More Tweeters and 'higher-end' stores are popping up more now, and more people are now going to those stores (we have the advances in TV development largely to thank for this). So a guy walks in to Tweeter and listens to the SDA and falls in love. One of two things is likely to happen - he'll either buy them, or if he can't afford them, fo looking for another pair of Polks becuase he now associates Polk with awesome sound. So maybe Polk doesn't get the SDA sale, but they get another sale becuase of the SDA anyway.

    .........

    Bottom line, Polk CAN bring back the SDA...question is WILL they?
    The only thing I can think of with your scenario above is that if they use SDA to lure people towards the brand, and they love the sound but can't afford it, why would the customer ever consider buying a lower line speaker that they can afford, but doesn't give them anything close to the sound that the SDA's did? I know that's settling, and people do it all the time, but I don't think you can/should rely on SDA's to drive people to the speakers that don't sound as good (if they can't afford the SDA's to begin with). If you do that, you're doing 2 things:

    1) Telling the customer that Polk's 'quality' sound is out of their reach and that their lower lines are more suited to their bank accounts (insulting)

    2) Putting a product out there that doesn't fit in with the overall current demographic of the average audio shopper.

    Point 1 is a bit odd, but put it in terms of cars......A 325 BMW isn't a 745, but it IS still a BMW. Can you say the same about a Monitor or RTi series in comparison to something like a current day SDA? I don't think that there is enough linearity between the lines to even try to say that the SDA would fit in anywhere....

    A DIY kit would scare the hell out of me as a manufacturer. I think this has been mentioned before, but would you as a business want to have people basing their opinions on this newest/greatest speaker on the capabilities of the person that put it together in their home? There's too much room for error that would make that a less likely option to ever happen IMO. Internet sales would be nice, at least as a window-opener to some of those specialty shops......
    comment comment comment comment. bitchy.
  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited August 2004
    I would most definetly be in line for a new SDA... If sold in the online Polk store I'd be there with CC # ready. Ohh... only if it were a big speaker with a lot of drivers though:p My new BRUSER!!!

    Twin
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited August 2004
    DIY would be cool. They provide the driver, crossover and binding posts, and you make your own cabinet.
  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited August 2004
    Originally posted by brettw22
    The only thing I can think of with your scenario above is that if they use SDA to lure people towards the brand, and they love the sound but can't afford it, why would the customer ever consider buying a lower line speaker that they can afford, but doesn't give them anything close to the sound that the SDA's did? I know that's settling, and people do it all the time, but I don't think you can/should rely on SDA's to drive people to the speakers that don't sound as good (if they can't afford the SDA's to begin with). If you do that, you're doing 2 things:

    1) Telling the customer that Polk's 'quality' sound is out of their reach and that their lower lines are more suited to their bank accounts (insulting)

    2) Putting a product out there that doesn't fit in with the overall current demographic of the average audio shopper.

    Point 1 is a bit odd, but put it in terms of cars......A 325 BMW isn't a 745, but it IS still a BMW. Can you say the same about a Monitor or RTi series in comparison to something like a current day SDA? I don't think that there is enough linearity between the lines to even try to say that the SDA would fit in anywhere....


    I am not in the highend crowd because I don't have highend money. The majority of the people are in this catagory. But as far as I am concerned, I have a pair of highend affordable speakers.

    It's a compromise between what you want and what you can afford. I wanted a complete Rotel setup, but I can't afford an all Rotel setup, so I settled for a Denon receiver which came as close to sounding like my old Rotel amp & preamp as I could get.

    Getting the Rotel receiver I wanted not only would have cost me considerable more money, but I would not have all the bells & whistles that my Denon has & most importantly it doesn't have input for a turntable. So while the Rotel is sonically better than the Denon, I would have had to have given up too many other things that were just as important to me.

    I couldn't care less what some hifalutin stereo rag says, I am interested in reality. So the highend stores & magazines can stuff it. I will keep my affordable highend speakers (by my standards) that I can easily afford & pick up at Tweeter.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    edited August 2004
    From an economic standpoint, bringing back classic designs, wheather its automobiles or loudspeakers, often does not work. The market has often moved on and there usually are not enough current "enthusiasts" to make a reintroduction profitable. Look at what happened to poor old Ford Motor Company when they reintroduced the "classic" Thunderbird:

    Ford to retire Thunderbird after disappointing sales
    Tue, Apr. 22, 2003
    Associated Press

    DEARBORN, Mich. -Again marking the end of an era, albeit the same one it ended a few years earlier, Ford Motor Co. says it will retire its retro-styled Thunderbird convertible.

    The decision to halt production after the 2005 or 2006 model year will cap a four-year period in which initial furor over the car quickly tapered off.

    This same scenario has been replayed dozens of times in dozens of different industries when the manufacturer yielded to the wishes of a core group of enthusiasts and reintroduced a classic design. In the case of the T-bird, Ford was yielding more to the wishes of its T-bird design group rather than the wishes of T-bird enthusiasts. What the T-bird design group may not have considered is that the people who would most want a retro-styled T-bird already had one or more of the "real" classic T-birds in their collection. Why would they buy another one unless they were impressed to the point of being "blown away"?

    Likewise, I would think that an SDA enthusiast is not going to reinvest in new model SDAs unless they are "blown away". I know I wouldn't.

    Like most audio enthusiasts, I'm always looking for something better, and I have always been able to find better. Better speakers, better amps, better source components. However, I have not heard anything "better" to the point of being "blown away" and subsequently dissatisfied with what I currently have. Furthermore, "better" usually requires a substantial financial investment of two to three times the cost of what I currently have.

    Even if Polk came out tomorrow with an announcement that they were going to do an SDA introduction, the marketing fiasco with the LSi series does not give me much encoragement of a successful SDA product launch. In addition to wide cabinet profiles, which are currently out of vogue in today's market, SDAs require quality high-current amplification, appropriate well-recorded source material, proper placement in the room, and A KNOWLEDGABLE SALES REPRESENTATIVE for their unique properties to be properly demonstrated.

    A question commonly asked by those curious about SDA's is "If SDAs were so great, why did they stop making them?". The fact that Polk Audio chose to discontinue the SDA series is not a negative reflection on their quality. There were two main reasons why SDAs were discontinued:

    1. Every product, whether it is a poor one or an exceptional one, simply has a life cycle. SDAs were manufactured during a nine year period from 1982 to 1991. This is an exeptionally long time in the fickle audio market place. Now, 22 years after their introduction, SDAs still enjoy a brisk trade on the used audio market. They often command 50% to 60% of their new retail list price. The largest SRS SDA speakers sometimes sell very near their new retail list price.

    2. Around the late 1980's to early 1990's, people's tastes moved toward smaller speakers, particularly toward small satellite speakers with a subwoofer. It is not uncommon to see ads for used SDAs where the seller either says he is getting rid of them because he is moving to smaller living quarters and will not have the space for them or the more common "my wife says they are too big and have to go".

    Now, all my foregoing statements notwithstanding, I would be happy to offer my services for testing any new SDA prototypes Polk is considering.:D
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    edited August 2004

    This same scenario has been replayed dozens of times in dozens of different industries when the manufacturer yielded to the wishes of a core group of enthusiasts and reintroduced a classic design. In the case of the T-bird, Ford was yielding more to the wishes of its T-bird design group rather than the wishes of T-bird enthusiasts. What the T-bird design group may not have considered is that the people who would most want a retro-styled T-bird already had one or more of the "real" classic T-birds in their collection. Why would they buy another one unless they were impressed to the point of being "blown away"?

    D [/B]

    Good point.
    Part of what made me stand down on the T-Bird was the $5,000 premium the dealers around here were charging.

    But you know someone mentioned that the people who own the classic SDA's might not purchase the new ones and it really didn't sink in.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.
  • PolkWannabie
    PolkWannabie Posts: 2,763
    edited August 2004
    Originally posted by DarqueKnight
    1. Every product, whether it is a poor one or an exceptional one, simply has a life cycle. SDAs were manufactured during a nine year period from 1982 to 1991. This is an exeptionally long time in the fickle audio market place. Now, 22 years after their introduction, SDAs still enjoy a brisk trade on the used audio market. They often command 50% to 60% of their new retail list price. The largest SRS SDA speakers sometimes sell very near their new retail list price.
    This was stretched into the late 90's if you include the SRT's ...
    Originally posted by xsmi
    But you know someone mentioned that the people who own the classic SDA's might not purchase the new ones and it really didn't sink in.
    Which potentially would be true for several reasons i.e. are the new ones a lot or any better ? and regardless of that, they'll certainly be more expensive and not just more expensive than buying a used pair of SDA's now but more expensive than the originals when they were new.
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,760
    edited August 2004
    Originally posted by PolkWannabie
    This was stretched into the late 90's if you include the SRT's ...

    The SRT was implemented as a home theater system and included SDA technology (although electronically rather acoustically), but was not part of the SDA series.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • bikezappa
    bikezappa Posts: 2,463
    edited August 2004
    DK I liked your well thought out response. I see no reason to bring back the SDA speaker line. I love these speakers and have 5 sets all working in my HT and 2 other 2 channel rooms.

    If you like these speakers, go buy them used. You become a special nut that likes large 20 year old speakers. I have a 64 SC Porsche. I don't want Porsche to make this car again.

    Technology changes, find and keep things that have QUAILTY and be happy.
  • PolkWannabie
    PolkWannabie Posts: 2,763
    edited August 2004
    Originally posted by DarqueKnight
    The SRT was implemented as a home theater system and included SDA technology (although electronically rather acoustically), but was not part of the SDA series.
    That's not exactly true ... The SDA technology was implemented in the same manner in the SRT's as in the other SDA speakers with the control center, for the purposes of SDA, being nothing more than the transformer in the SDA cable that allows for mono blocks or non common ground amps to be used. The only other SDA related function the control center performs is to allow the user to turn SDA off or on or set it to wide which increases the frequency range over which cross talk cancellation is performed. The SRT's like all other SDA speakers have separate stereo and SDA arrays. This would not be necessary if one were performing crosstalk cancellation electronically as for example with Carver sonic holography.
  • tntvt
    tntvt Posts: 121
    edited August 2004
    The SRTs were also sold in stereo pairs.
  • PolkWannabie
    PolkWannabie Posts: 2,763
    edited August 2004
    Uhhh ... WTF does that mean ? ... Ohhh, you mean just the mains ? as opposed to with centers and possibly surrounds etc ?
  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited August 2004
    A comeback is possible. Look at the 2005 Ford Mustangs, they look similar to 1969 Mustangs.
  • xsmi
    xsmi Posts: 1,786
    edited August 2004
    And the $125,000 Ford GT. If Polk does bring them back although I want them to make money I hope they don't price them too high.
    2-channelBelles 22A Pre, Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2, Marantz SA8005, Pro-Ject RPM-10 Turntable, Pro-Ject Phono Box DS3B, Polk Audio Legend L800's, AudioQuest Cable throughout.