Center chanel biwire

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ezc
ezc Posts: 426
edited July 2002 in Basic Hookup/Wiring Questions
I have a LSiC center & wanted to know if bi wire speaker cable would be better than single cable. Im currenty using Monster Z-1 speaker cable. Is biwire better than single wire for HT or is biwire more for music? Would biwire make the voices from a dvd more defined? Thanks in advance!
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  • sgtgto
    sgtgto Posts: 310
    edited July 2002
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    HI:

    MO, I would not waste my time or money!


    Gary
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    I second that; although, waite and take the direction of Mantis, Russ or Troy.

    I don't have their level of expertise.
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited July 2002
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    Man, grouping me with Mantis.

    What did I ever do to you brotha? ;)

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    :lol::p
    I have a lot of respect for all of ya but its Friday and I wanted to instigate another round debates:lol:
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited July 2002
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    Roger that HBomb.

    I feel if speaker has bi-wire capabilties, you owe it to yourself to at least try it, or make a wire-jumper at the minimum.....

    The manufacturer implemented it in the design for a reason, and you paid for that feature, use it.....

    But faak, what do I know. Anyone seen my baseball?

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    The question was not whether or not to bi-wire but if we should use wire designed specifically for bi-wire. 4 wires in 1 verse 2 pair of doubles, if I said that correctly. I have been following debates amongst you guys on different posts and have began, at least the consideration, of swapping cable types just for my own tests.

    In my settup, I have bi-Amped, not just bi-wired, my fronts and center and from a cable management standpoint it would clean things up by going with 4in1 cable but I'm not convinced that I would hear or detect a big difference in audio quality.

    Just searching for answers before spending the greenback.

    HBombtoo
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Aaron
    Aaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
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    [In my settup, I have bi-Amped, not just bi-wired, my fronts and center and from a cable management standpoint it would clean things up by going with 4in1 cable but I'm not convinced that I would hear or detect a big difference in audio quality.
    Uh-oh! Do I detect another ghetto bi-amper??? Do you actually have two amps or are you just using the A and B terminals?

    Aaron
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    NO Bud!!! I am configured as Mr. DiComo reffers as Half Baked...

    Split the PreAmp and run into two separate Amps out to the Speakers. Two Amps per speaker... Big difference on Center Channel and bass improvement of my 800i's.

    Ghetto Bi-Amper Sock:LOL:
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Aaron
    Aaron Posts: 1,853
    edited July 2002
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    Ahhh, I can breathe a sigh of relief! You had me worried for a minute.

    Aaron
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited July 2002
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    And I bet his amps are the same, not like he used a Yammie and a Sony.......

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    The Outlaw 770, 7 X 200Wrms/channel. The wife is not always happy with me...
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • nascarmann
    nascarmann Posts: 1,464
    edited July 2002
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    The Outlaw 770, 7 X 200Wrms/channel. The wife is not always happy with me...

    Until you crank up the Outlaw..... :D
    Oh, the bottle has been to me, my closes friend, my worse enemy!
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,056
    edited July 2002
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    If I got your question correctly,
    Bi wiring is usually a better way to go.Lots of Improvement over using the single wire to one set of postd then using the factory jumpers.
    To make things seemless, use the same length and same bi wire for all 3 up front.
    If your asking if pre made bi wire cables are better then using 2 2 wires and making it yourself,well It depends on what kind of wire you use.It also is a neater run with all 4 conductors in one jacket.
    I would do a search on bi wiring ,there has been many posts on this topic.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • liv4fam
    liv4fam Posts: 311
    edited July 2002
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    Hey HbombToo, Why do you waste your time bi-amping RT800I's? One of your amps cost more than your pair of speakers, maybe you should stop being ghetto and buy better speakers and stop wasting your electronics. Another thing how much pre-out loss are you getting of your patch cable y-adapter and do you even know how sensitive your amp is and how much voltage they need to see to hit there full dynamic range? To everybody in the forum I am not a newbie I am Mantis's install partner at Tweeter and I tired of hearing about people doing Ghetto stuff with there electronics. (A 300 dollar circuit city receiver is not a high-end Home Theater pre-amp.) Use your head
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  • ezc
    ezc Posts: 426
    edited July 2002
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    thanks for the info. I thinkl Ill try the bi wire on three front speakers. I have LSi15 front mains & LSiC center. Ill order the cables & try it. Ill post my results! Thanks !
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited July 2002
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    Man, liv4fam just jumps right in and starts insulting mofos.......hmmmmmm. Seems some folks don't work and play well with others.

    Why don't we all just clam up and let Dan and his partner have the forum. Obviously we have nothing of value to offer.

    LH
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,056
    edited July 2002
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    You see TroyD.....your not the only one with a running buddy.
    Thanks for playing BIG DUMB you can try again later.
    I see you have a problem when your on the receiving end.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited July 2002
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    Oh boy, another term tosser in the loop. This should be fun. Tweeter now eh? I guess this is why we are experiencing the paradigm shift from Transparent to Monster. ;)

    liv4fam, what would you suggest he buy, perhaps a Sony receiver and some Bose from his local Tweeter store?

    Do you even know what amp(s) he has? Why don't you ask RonP how much he 'lost' using Y-cables.... Very disappointing Mantis. You should have brought in your store manager, someone with a little class, and just doesn't start in a rant without providing any reasoning or facts.....

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • nascarmann
    nascarmann Posts: 1,464
    edited July 2002
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    liv4fam

    I normally welcome everyone to the forum.......oh well. When we start by insulting a member for no apparent reason:rolleyes: .....one might wonder the character of a person that does this.....fun and games are great at times but insulting HBombToo for no reason is not fun and games;) have fun here and treat people with respect if they treat you this way.....I will try and let you earn back my respect:)
    Oh, the bottle has been to me, my closes friend, my worse enemy!
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    liv4fam, I appreciate your comments because I am new to this game and have a lot to learn. There are reasons why I have configured my system the way it is. The first and biggest reason is I am a very curiouse type of individual and like to try STUFF and tinker. "Drives my wife nuts" The second reason is I am attempting to put together, within my means and understanding a damn good HT settup that can grow from ground up. You are close in your analysis that 1 of my amps runs close to what a pair of 800i's run but if you think for a minute that I did not consider that, your very wrong.

    Now lets talk specifications:
    Outlaw Voltage In for full power out @ 200Watts is 1.43 volts, Published. I contacted Outlaw for confirmation and They also reported that the 770 is designed such that it conforms to THX standards and puts out 100W @ 1 Volt in. I also contacted H/k regarding my 520 and they have designed their PreAmps such that they will drive to nearly 2.2Volts which far exceeds the input requirments of the Outlaw.

    If you follow the posts closely here on the Forum you will find that I also asked the question regarding losses of an RCA Y. Dr Spec graciously answered my question regarding this. After the Docs response I realized that my question did not make sense nor does your statement. If you think about it liv4fam, its Voltage across the Amp from the PreAmp and with an RCA Y we don't spit the voltage we split the current. You should review Kirchaufs voltage and current laws.... With that being said, the high current h/k is doing a very nice job driving the Outlaw in this configuration.

    As for speakers what would you recommend??? I have chosen to stay away from powered towers, and the 800i is an effin good speaker for the pay point. While I was in college back in 1990 I worked my **** off for a summer in the North East doing Thermal studies on the Power Grids for United Illuminating and Boston Edison and saved as much money as possible. With the savings I purchased my first set of speakers which were the Polk RTA8T's. I still own them and LUV THEM. Just rebuilt them. With a 10 year old Polk speaker and the new 800i's my system sounds Sweeeeet. I figure I have many years of reliable enjoyment from my New Polks along with the RTA's.

    Furthermore, my reasoning behind Bi-Amping was a trial to see what happens to the clarity of sound across the full band. My thoughts as an Engineer was that lower freq consumes more Amp resources than the highs and what I perceive now is just amazing sound clarity across all bands. Its tuned up and balanced @ 85 dB with an SPL meter and I am happy.

    As far as my electronics is concerned, WTF is so bad about circuit city products??? **** the h/k 520 has all the processors I need except THX which does not make sense for me right now! BTW you should do a price check on the 520 @ CC... Its a tad bit higher than 300 dollars but if you can find 1 for that on ebay I suggest you try it because its a damn good box. I was not happy with the power out of the 520 so I bought an Amp. From 75 to 200 Watts per channel and by the time I looked at the Pay Point between the THX h/k and the Outlaw I nearly broke even. I probably won't upgrade h/k for many years or untill I build my own theater which is also many years from now. My Cal Labs CL 20 does not do DTS but ****, when I bought the sucker it was the leading edge. A 24 bit dac, HDCD along with DVD and it is still GREAT. Ya sure I would like to be able to do DTS and I'll be there sooner than later. A lot of folks like Denon, Sony and many other types, SO, what makes 1 better than the other? PERSONAL TASTE... which Makes the world go round.

    I thank all on the Forum for your consideration.

    Regards
    HBombToo
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    Oh, BTW... I are an engineer and Kant SPLELL berry gid so plis frgiff meee.

    HBombtoo
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,056
    edited July 2002
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    Hbombtoo,
    heres the real deal with using a receiver as a preamp.This is also why I said awhile ago.
    I/WE have seen receivers with amps running on them not drived to there full potential.Ok I can give you an example.
    We mated a Denon avr3801 with an Onkyo 2 channel(I forget the model number)250x2 power amp,it had volt meters on the front of it and had wood side panels,nice amp.We listened to it on a preamp at the stereo exchange.It had massive power reserves and really good depth.The amp was hooked up to the Denon avr3801 and fell on it's face.The Denon's output voltage was alot lower then the preamp we heard it first on.It took the Denon almost full power just to get the meters rockin.Then at this point the sound quality suffered.
    Just for another reference.....we has a Yamaha rxv1 mated with a B&K ref 2220 which is 220x2.Super great amp when mated with the B&K PT3BII,but mate it with Yamah and the pure clean sound quality goes in the toliet.Its not that the receivers are bad peices, stand alone they do quite nice.They just didn't power the amps as well as a pre amp did.Same brand usually sounds the best.

    I personally think your post was done vey well.And I'm also glad your setup is working for you.But if you ever get the extra cash,I bet the Outlaw preamp would drive those amps better.Sound quality would likely Improve as well.

    This is a small learning experience that we underwent and discovered the MATING THEORY.You guys call it THE MANTIS THEORY.And make jokes about it whenever is possible.
    But it works pretty well.We have tested this theory over and over.

    As far as what would I run your rt800i's with??I wouldn't go seperates with them,Id go with a good quality receiver like the Denon avr3802 or even the avr4802.Both have the ability to make them sing and not break the bank.
    Remember you have to factor in good cables between the preamp and amp.Lots of money for 800.00 speakers.The point is that the seperates exceed the sound quality of your speakers.The seperates could shine better with better speakers.Like the LSI line,they scream for seperates or at least a flagship receiver.

    It's your call in the end.This post is just for a different point of view.Use it if it helps you in any way or dissagree with and and smile.I'm cool any way you go.
    Good luck with your system man.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • nascarmann
    nascarmann Posts: 1,464
    edited July 2002
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    I think BDT may be right......this forum has..... mantis I can't believe you think it's OK for your buddy to jump in here and start insulting members that have done NOTHING to him or said NOTHING to him.....I may be wrong but I don't think HBombToo has ever said anything cross about you either? Reading these post the last few days is just turning me off from this forum......Maybe it is time for me to step back for a while :rolleyes:
    Oh, the bottle has been to me, my closes friend, my worse enemy!
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    Mantis, I think you are correct about the LSI Line and trust me I have had my droooool on.

    OK Mantis... why would the Outlaw preAmp do a better job than the h/k? I gave you the Specs and they are well matched so what kind of difference should/could I expect? Are there reasons other than perception that could point toward an increase in performance? Can you show me in the published literature why 1 works better than the other? Let me point out for analysis sake that now for an 85 dB SPL the h/k is at -15 dB and can go to +20 dB. I hear NO Noise and all my cables are 12 guage.

    As an aside, I have a pretty thick hide and was not offended by your bud but you have to admit his tone was rather harsh. I think that if we were in a Bar drinking a cold 1 it may have came across in a different light. I believe he could have made the same point without being so in your face, which is what everybody is trying to convey here.

    Nascarmann, don't you go anywhere! I have toooo much fun with you man.
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,056
    edited July 2002
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    TO ALL IN THE FORUM.............
    I had nothing to do with liv4fam coming in here and exploding on people other then I 've been telling him about the attitudes that fly around in here.
    We had a lengthy discussion about online audio and video forums.He loves this hobbie(and job for us)as much as I do.We came to the conclusion that most online forums talk more about sex,he said she said,and anything else but audio and video.His anger is in all forums and wouldn't mind being a part of a really good one.
    This forum is one of the best I had ever been into.It's geared more towards Polk owners(which he is in the psw1200 sub),but if we all cleaned up our acts alittle and try to leave our attitudes at the door, I think this forum could get right back on track.
    The last few days where some ugly ones.I added much to it as well.I'm a big enough man to say I was wrong for plenty I said around here.
    I can't speak for my partner liv4fam,but hes a really good guy and could benifit this forum.I know where hes coming from with his ranting.It's up to him if he wants to come in here and chat with us.
    As far as I'm concerned,As long as nobody attacks me and wants to talk audio and video...I'm completely game.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited July 2002
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    after reading the posts in here. it's suddenly become very clear why i left this forum for a month. nothing has changed, and some people just have to much time on their hands.
    please use the English language correctly. your, you're .... their, there
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited July 2002
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    I'm just going to throw this out there.....I'm not an engineer or even particularly smart on the subject but here is my .02.

    The voltage produced from the preouts on just about ANY receiver should be enough to sufficiently drive an amp. The source, IE my cd player has an output of 2.2 volts, my old POS cd player is 2....more than enough to drive an amp ( hence, why I use a passive preamp). So, it would follow that as long as long as there was no significant loss of signal through the receiver, that the voltage thing is a non-issue?

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    Agreed, TroyD
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,987
    edited July 2002
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    Just as long as you aren't running Polks with those amp(s), you should be ok. Don't want your electronics wasted.....that's all... ;)

    High five brother! (implied in the gayest of **** voices)

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2002
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    I was thinking about trading in my 800i's for those Bose cubes that hit ebay this morning. That should bring some real fire to my living room.

    The more realistic the better right?
    ***WAREMTAE***
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