How can you listen to anything under 200 watt per chnl?

2

Answers

  • mhardy6647 wrote: »
    If one has loudspeakers with triple digit sensitivity (i.e., > 100 dB SPL per watt at 1 meter), it might be easy. Depends on the nature of the loudspeaker load, though (to wit, mostly the impedance curve).

    3.5 watts per channel at my house using loudspeakers with ca. 100 dB per watt @ 1 meter sensitivity. No complaints.


    27138816799_f36a6e03d9_h.jpgDSC_9976 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

    Most consumer & "audiophile" loudspeakers today tend to have low sensitivities. For example 20 dB lower sensitivity would mean that one hundred times as much power is required to drive a loudspeaker to the same SPL output. Realistically, many loudspeakers today are. ca. 85 dB sensitivity; 3.5 watts into 100 dB speakers, in terms of sheer SPL, would equate to about 111 watts into 85 dB speakers.

    Just a quick? If 102db sensitive speakers only need say 3 to 10 watts then why do they ask for 400rms each.. Or is the tube amps diff
  • mlistens03mlistens03 Posts: 2,101
    They are capable of 400 watts of power pumping into them... That does not mean that they need 400 watts to operate.
    My Missions, which are rated for 150 watts RMS, are powered by my Lafayette receiver. (22 watts per channel.) No issues and it sounds better on that than anything else I've tried them on.
    Not Tom, or Trey, or Jim
    In a few days, it will be...
    NAD C352
    Monitor Audio Radius R90’s/Polk SDA CRS/Mission Freedom 770 IV
    BJC speaker cables, generic RCA’s
    Technics SL3200 turntable and a Shure M97xE phono cartridge
    Velodyne VA-907 subwoofer
    Lafayette LR-1100 acting as a tuner
    TCC-TC750 phono stage
    I've always thought the goal of high end audio was not to have your neighbors bang on the wall and say, 'Turn that darn music down' but to have your neighbors bang on the wall and say, 'Tell your friends to go home and you can practice later this week'.
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 10,810
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    If one has loudspeakers with triple digit sensitivity (i.e., > 100 dB SPL per watt at 1 meter), it might be easy. Depends on the nature of the loudspeaker load, though (to wit, mostly the impedance curve).

    3.5 watts per channel at my house using loudspeakers with ca. 100 dB per watt @ 1 meter sensitivity. No complaints.


    27138816799_f36a6e03d9_h.jpgDSC_9976 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

    Most consumer & "audiophile" loudspeakers today tend to have low sensitivities. For example 20 dB lower sensitivity would mean that one hundred times as much power is required to drive a loudspeaker to the same SPL output. Realistically, many loudspeakers today are. ca. 85 dB sensitivity; 3.5 watts into 100 dB speakers, in terms of sheer SPL, would equate to about 111 watts into 85 dB speakers.

    Just a quick? If 102db sensitive speakers only need say 3 to 10 watts then why do they ask for 400rms each.. Or is the tube amps diff

    OH Jeesh "face meet palm"

    You have a A LOT of audio learning to do.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,369
    What is the correct assumption then? I did try and simplify the numbers some to make my description clear but it is a close approximation. How far off am I?

    There are too many variables involved to assume 0 is equal to a certain wattage. A more accurate method would use an SPL meter at one meter to determine where it is on the AVR volume scale that equals a certain wattage.
    I am glad you think you can hear a 0.5 DB increase but I will call BS. Especially if this is listening to music and not a pure test tone. Plus or minus 3 DB's is generally regarded as the level which MOST people can hear a change with a test tone. I know some peoples hearing is better and I am sure there are some 18 year olds that might be able to hear a 1 DB change (with a test tone). But you are not 18 anymore.

    Everyone can try this for themselves. Close your eyes and start listening to music. Then have someone else turn the volume up and down 1 DB. You won't notice any change. Experiment how far they have to go till you can reliably hear a difference and report back.

    I don't think, I know because I have done it time and time again. Furthermore, you seem to be confusing the ability to hear age related higher frequencies with the ability to hear changes in volume levels, which is most definitely not age related.
    The power ratio between an 80 and a 100 watt amp is 1.25x. Coincidentally a 1.26 increase in power gets you 1 DB more sound. So I guess your ears are so sensitive you can not only hear the difference but you also consider it a louder amp?

    The reality could easily be that the 80wpc amp is louder than the 100wpc amp due to the amount of gain.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,858
    edited October 3
    I am glad you think you can hear a 0.5 DB increase but I will call BS. Especially if this is listening to music and not a pure test tone. Plus or minus 3 DB's is generally regarded as the level which MOST people can hear a change with a test tone. I know some peoples hearing is better and I am sure there are some 18 year olds that might be able to hear a 1 DB change (with a test tone). But you are not 18 anymore.

    Count me in as being able to hear .5 db increases. My Mcintosh C100's volume control is calibrated in .5 db steps and a .5db change up or down is quite noticeable even to these 62 year old ears. 3db would be 6 steps on the volume control and that is a huge change in the sound. I'm betting there's not a single member here that can't easily hear either of those changes.

    Impossible for the .5dB attenuation steps on the volume control to actually relate to a "real" increase/decrease of .5dB. That .5dB has to be measured from a single point in the room and depending on how the amp interacts with said pre-amp and the efficiency of the set of speakers, there is no way to pre-determine a .5dB attenuation with a linear "knob". It's simply a numerical reference, nothing more. It has zero to do with an actual increase/decrease of .5dB.

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,369
    I would argue that the .5dB step is a lot closer to a .5dB increase/decrease in volume than it is to a 3dB increase/decrease.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,858
    edited October 3
    Example, put your ear to the speaker and move the vol one step, you will clearly hear an increase.

    Stand back from the speakers 10 feet, have someone move the vol one step, bet you don't hear it. So even though the vol read out says .5dB it has no relevance since too many other variables are in play. Variables like source material, speaker efficiency, room characteristics, cable interaction, amp/pre-amp/source interaction, etc, etc.

    All those dB readouts do is take a non-linear function and approximate it to a linear readout for consistency.

    Point being that the read-out still states .5dB, yet in both scenario's you get a different result.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,858
    edited October 3
    F1nut wrote: »
    I would argue that the .5dB step is a lot closer to a .5dB increase/decrease in volume than it is to a 3dB increase/decrease.

    Perhaps, but without a reference, it means nothing really. It's a way of assigning a linear number to a non-linear function. There will be a certain set of circumstances it will be correct, unless you define that point, it's just an approximation. And you see, now people think they can hear a .5dB change in sound because of it. When in reality that's almost impossible to do unless you are very close to the speakers. I know I don't listen with my ears up to the speakers.

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,858
    Volume controls are the number one source of distortion and other non-linearity's.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,961
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    If one has loudspeakers with triple digit sensitivity (i.e., > 100 dB SPL per watt at 1 meter), it might be easy. Depends on the nature of the loudspeaker load, though (to wit, mostly the impedance curve).

    3.5 watts per channel at my house using loudspeakers with ca. 100 dB per watt @ 1 meter sensitivity. No complaints.


    27138816799_f36a6e03d9_h.jpgDSC_9976 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

    Most consumer & "audiophile" loudspeakers today tend to have low sensitivities. For example 20 dB lower sensitivity would mean that one hundred times as much power is required to drive a loudspeaker to the same SPL output. Realistically, many loudspeakers today are. ca. 85 dB sensitivity; 3.5 watts into 100 dB speakers, in terms of sheer SPL, would equate to about 111 watts into 85 dB speakers.

    Just a quick? If 102db sensitive speakers only need say 3 to 10 watts then why do they ask for 400rms each.. Or is the tube amps diff

    Those old Altecs would emit fairly large puffs of smoke if fed 400 watts... but then again 25 watts continuous could probably be used to loosen plaster.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,961
    edited October 3
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Volume controls are the number one source of distortion and other non-linearity's.

    H9

    Thus do some of us use inductive volume controls (autoformer (or transformer) as opposed to resistive attenuators.

    :)

    http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,961
    edited October 3
    On topic -- no doubt some folks can hear 1 dB or less differences.
    I can in the context of a deliberate, controlled change, but AFAIK I cannot hear, e.g., a 1 dB (or less) difference in RIAA EQ curves between two phono preamps.

    Folks who can hear 0.5 dB differences, I think, have to spend way more than I do on hifis. :)


    By the way, while I absolutely do not disagree with the importance of the reference point for dB measurements, an increment of a decibel (deci Bel = 0.1 Bel, named after Alexander Graham Bell, the telephone guy) is meaningful in the contexts of, e.g., AC voltages, independent of references. The issues of nonlinearity and inaccuracy are a different matter. We use logarithmic units (Bels... or decibels) as a practical convenience to compress the phenomenal dynamic range covered by our own auditory processing systems.

    120 dB = 12 orders of magnitude dynamic range from the threshold of sound to the limit of pain/auditory system saturation.

    Nature is pretty amazing stuff (which is why I am a biologist, of course!).
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,208
    If I'm not mistaken, .5 db is roughly 16% louder, 1db is roughly 33% louder.. that's somewhat of a large percentage even though its expressed in a small decimal.

  • VR3VR3 Posts: 22,246
    Stopped looking at wattage ratings years ago and stuck to current ratings for general guidance
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • verbverb Posts: 3,305
    Viking64 wrote: »
    I'm betting there's not a single member here that can't easily hear either of those changes.

    zmxhl65v44o2.jpg

    What? Pugs can't raise their paws that high? :smile:
    Basement: Polk SDA SRS, Micro Seiki MB14 TT, VTL 2.5 Pre, Marantz CD6006 CDP, Conrad Johnson MF2300A Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, AQ Diamondback (version 1) RCA IC's, MIT Terminator2 Cables
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  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 2,522
    OK look, if you guys are going to throw a bunch of facts and numbers out there to try and confuse the situation then I'm just going to leave!
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
    Dual SVS SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 10,810
    kharp1 wrote: »
    OK look, if you guys are going to throw a bunch of facts and numbers out there to try and confuse the situation then I'm just going to leave!

    No you're not...
  • delkaldelkal Posts: 310
    edited October 3
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    On topic -- no doubt some folks can hear 1 dB or less differences.

    120 dB = 12 orders of magnitude dynamic range from the threshold of sound to the limit of pain/auditory system saturation.

    Nature is pretty amazing stuff (which is why I am a biologist, of course!).

    The range of our hearing is unbelievably amazing and hard to comprehend. It is even harder to the comprehend the log DB scale and how much power it takes for an amp to imitate that sound. So getting back on track and to put things in perspective.

    Assume you have a 90 db efficiency speaker..............
    To listen at 80 DBs you will need 0.1 watt amp power
    To listen at 90 DBs you will need 1 watt amp power (this is the definition of efficiency)
    To listen at 100 DBs you will need 10 watt amp power
    To listen at 110 DBs you will need 100 watt amp power
    To listen at 120 DBs you will need 1000 watt amp power

    To keep things civil here I will concede some people can hear a 1-3dB change if the test is done right. But if you are listening to music and your friend says "Turn it up just a little" you will undoubtedly turn it up more than 3DBs (If you turn it up just 1 DB they will likely give you a funny look).

    My point is a 3 DB difference a very subtle barely relevant change while listening but just doing that doubles the power you need. So if you feel your 100 watt amp is not "loud" enough going to a 200 watt amp will just add 3DBs (Just a little) to your max volume.

    A 200 watt amp is not twice as loud as a 100 watt one. In fact it is barely audible. And who ever listens to their system turned up all of the way?

    Still stereo companies love to hype their power ratings.
  • FTGVFTGV Posts: 3,587
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Impossible for the .5dB attenuation steps on the volume control to actually relate to a "real" increase/decrease of .5dB.
    H9
    You can get that sort of precision from digitally controlled and stepped attenuators.
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Volume controls are the number one source of distortion and other non-linearity's.

    H9
    Variable pots can be wretched little devices but in a system context speaker drivers and gain devices (ie.tubes,transistors) contribute substantially more in the way of distortion.
  • g7traderg7trader Posts: 39
    F1nut wrote: »
    I would argue that the .5dB step is a lot closer to a .5dB increase/decrease in volume than it is to a 3dB increase/decrease.

    Are you one of the admins on Audiokarma? I got permanently banned from there can you get me back lol
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 2,522
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    kharp1 wrote: »
    OK look, if you guys are going to throw a bunch of facts and numbers out there to try and confuse the situation then I'm just going to leave!

    No you're not...

    You're right...I'm going to go pout in the corner like a little beotch!
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
    Dual SVS SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 3,239
    FestYboy wrote: »
    ...wonder why

    I keep reading their username as "7thgrader". I also wonder why. :p
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,961
    edited October 4
    stumbled across this ol' sticky @ AK (looking for something else):
    http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/amplifier-sensitivity-decibels-and-you.58829/

    gmcman wrote: »
    If I'm not mistaken, .5 db is roughly 16% louder, 1db is roughly 33% louder.. that's somewhat of a large percentage even though its expressed in a small decimal.

    and 10 dB = twice as loud; 20 dB = four times as loud... but even those comparisons are difficult to "hear" in a real world setting.

    The figures of merit in terms of amplifiers, I would say, are these (which we've all talked around in previous posts).

    10 dB more output takes 10 times as much power (one order of magnitude)
    20 dB more output takes 100 times as much power (two orders of magnitude)

    etc.

    Just think of the decibel as what it is, a tenth of an exponential quantity of 'intensity' called the Bel :) Drop the zero and it's like high school math.

    10^1 = 10 (10 dB)
    10^2 = 100 (20 dB)
    10^3 = 1000 (30 dB)

    1/10 = -10 dB
    1/100 = -20 dB
    1/1000 = -30 dB

    etc.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,733
    kharp1 wrote: »
    OK look, if you guys are going to throw a bunch of facts and numbers out there to try and confuse the situation then I'm just going to leave!

    We have special skills, and if you leave, we will find you....and steal all your audio gear. :)
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,961
    heh, we could start talking about phase angles and power factors...
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,733
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    heh, we could start talking about phase angles and power factors...

    Doc, relax, have some more coffee pal. Too early to start using my brain. It has set hours of operation ya know. :)
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    Tad 803 bookies
    Polk 500 surrounds
    Polk s35 center
    SVS SB-2000
    Sonos

    Music-

    Joule la-100 pre
    B&k 1430 amp
    Cary xciter dac
    Cullen modded Sonos
    ERA D5 bookies

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Analysis plus crystal oval ic's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,188
    edited October 4
    Isn’t a loudspeaker’s efficiency measured at a given frequency 1khz @1w and 1 meter?

    Wouldn’t much more power be used to produce another more demanding frequency at the same level and further away?
    Post edited by jeremymarcinko on
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,733
    Isn’t a loudspeaker’s efficiency measured at a given frequency 1khz @1w and 1 meter.

    Wouldn’t much more power be used to produce another more demanding frequency at the same level and further away?

    Yes to both. Simply put, it's just a unit of measure much like ounces of liquid in a measuring cup.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    Tad 803 bookies
    Polk 500 surrounds
    Polk s35 center
    SVS SB-2000
    Sonos

    Music-

    Joule la-100 pre
    B&k 1430 amp
    Cary xciter dac
    Cullen modded Sonos
    ERA D5 bookies

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Analysis plus crystal oval ic's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
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