The Tale Of 5 Tweeters - SDA Tweeter Replacement Guide

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Comments

  • robertwhoustonrobertwhouston Registered User Posts: 7
    SUPER, Thank you so much.
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,313
    SL1000 And SL2000/RD0194 Frame Size Comparison

    bsolozb2pupm.jpg

    The SL2000 (and RD0194) frame size is 12% larger than the SL1000 frame.

    buznpf9atdci.jpg
    Frame measurements were taken with Mitutoyo CD-6-CSX digital calipers.

    SL1000 Dimensions:
    4-8/16" W x 3-1/16" H (4.485" W x 3.039" H)

    SL2000/RD0194 Dimensions:
    4-10/16" W x 3-6/16" H (4.6085" W x3.355" H)

    Fractional part of digital measurement was rounded up to closest 16th inch.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • Dr_WuDr_Wu Posts: 57
    edited August 10
    I can tell you that cutting the outside rim off the RD0194 gets it to fit (sometimes with a little enlargement at the corners of the cut outs) in a SDA-CRS SL1000 space (1984 version). They flush-mount very securely, and in my case, without any deformation of the face plate. Better than routing, given my tools/skills.

    Can also confirm that to my untrained ears, there is a noticeable improvement. Smoother, sweeter and less "screechy" and sibilant.

    Would like to add my thanks to DK for the informative thread.
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,030
    Great work!

    Looking forward, are you thinking of doing any frequency response measurements also?
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4,SDA 3.1TL, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
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  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,313
    I would love to, but proper frequency response measurements would require an anechoic chamber. The best I can do now would be the frequency response in my listening room...and that wouldn't tell the whole story when comparing the FR of the different tweeters.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,060
    Thanks for the additional tweeter specs. :) B)

    I still need to order some replacement tweeters.
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 19,015
    I would love to, but proper frequency response measurements would require an anechoic chamber. The best I can do now would be the frequency response in my listening room...and that wouldn't tell the whole story when comparing the FR of the different tweeters.

    outdoors in a quiet location is a pretty good alternative.
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,313
    Provided it's close to a source of electrical power.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 19,015
    edited August 23
    Peer pressure is an amazing force. ;)

    (I kid -- I kid!)

    In all seriousness, thanks very, very much for your industriousness and creativity in tackling this phase of your extensive evaluation/documentation of these drivers. I can only speak for myself, but it is much appreciated.

  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 10,833
    edited August 23
    Dang Raife We had better hope you don't get "dedicated" to audio you'll be a force to be reckoned with.

    Very Nice by the way.
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,861
    Excellent work!
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,060
    I thought SL2000's had a 5Khz hump in its freq. response which makes them un-liked by so many.

    My old friends and I STILL LIKE my SRS-2's sound though. The previous 2 days had a lot of listening critics ears (6) trying to decide which we liked the most. We 3 have experienced MANY speakers and electronics. One friend is 36, the second is 29 and I'm 61. They can hear up to 17 or 18 Khz. , I hear up to 10 or 11 Khz. The 36 year old is the most experienced with SOUND. It would take two paragraphs to describe his experience and knowledge. My other friend creates his own recordings and has great ears too. Me...You all know about me already, just an old rocker! :D

    These original tweeters in these SRS-2's now sound better than the ones in my last pair of SRS-2's I believe. I replaced them ( the older harsh sounding ones ) with R-DO194's. After a couple of weeks of listening to the new tweeters back then, they started to sound brighter than they did when they were new. The new R-DO194 tweeters are SMOOTHER I think. I have had no cross-over work done on either pair. Both SRS-2's are the Blade-Blade models.

    An old friend of mine stopped by last night and we did A/B testing of a few speakers like I just did Tuesday with another old friend.

    We three agree on the sound of my SRS2's with the old tweeters still in them sound louder in the midrange than 3 other speaker pairs, but we LOVE these speakers sound.

    One being my new Triton Ones.
    The second being my Newform Research R645's.
    The third being my Monitor 10's with Peerless tweeters.

    I've been really wanting to order replacement tweeters for these SRS-2s, but these sound OK still. I'm still sitting on the fence...


    I feel the midrange increase in these make them sound different and brighter than the other three speakers but in a good way for now.

    If I replace the tweeters, I'm almost sure the SRS-2's will sound smoother JUST like the other 2 speaker brands which are highly praised just like the Polks with Peerless tweeters are.

    Finally, am I missing something in the graphs above?

    They all look very similar with no hump for the SL2000.


    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,060
    edited August 23
    I forgot to start my thoughts with a HUGE THANK YOU for doing these studies, logging all that information down and then posting all of it for us to see and study ourselves.

    Thanks you again, Ray!
    B)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 10,833
    edited August 23
    Tony M wrote: »

    Finally, am I missing something in the graphs above?

    They all look very similar with no hump for the SL2000.


    Tony you can plainly see the hump in the green line(SL2000) in the graph that has all tweeters in it. Look just past the 10k part that is the hump. It doesn't look like much but that bit is the problem.

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 19,015
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    Tony M wrote: »

    Finally, am I missing something in the graphs above?

    They all look very similar with no hump for the SL2000.


    Tony you can plainly see the hump in the green line(SL2000) in the graph that has all tweeters in it. Look just past the 10k part that is the hump. It doesn't look like much but that bit is the problem.

    This bit right here(?):

    my40cv61qzj1.png

  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,060
    I see it now.

    But my hearing cuts out at 10khz. Maybe my hearing was better years ago and could hear that hump and a harsh resonance.

    But it seems my SRS2's sound is louder in the lower ranges in the midrange and it doesn't annoy my friend's sensitive ears or mine. It's really weird that the other set was great but the tweeters would sound like crap at certain frequencies like Celine Dion's voice a lot. I can't get to Celine's CDs right now, that sucks, but I'll put in some Diana Krall and another popular female singer, Alison Krauss with Union Station and another of her CDs.

    I might hear it again. Give me some time to do it though. Maybe today or tomorrow. ;)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,764
    Should make this thread a sticky for future references. Nice job Ray, as usual.
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  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,313
    Tony M wrote: »
    I thought SL2000's had a 5Khz hump in its freq. response which makes them un-liked by so many.

    Actually, the hump is 5 dB at 13 kHz.
    mhardy6647 wrote: »

    This bit right here(?):

    my40cv61qzj1.png

    Yes.
    Tony M wrote: »

    Finally, am I missing something in the graphs above?
    They all look very similar with no hump for the SL2000.


    This plot should make it easier to see the 5 dB rise at 13 kHz. To see the plot in its native larger size, right click on the picture to either save it, open it in another tab, or view it separately.

    c69shri9wx44.jpg
    Figure 13. SL2000 finer detail amplitude vs. frequency plot.

    The average amplitude of the SL2000's frequency response from 1.5 kHz to 15 kHz is approximately 67.5 dB, which is 5 dB below the SL2000's peak amplitude response of 72.5 dB at 13 kHz.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,376
    Tony, instead of plastic straws I'm sending you a pair of glasses.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 10,833
    F1nut wrote: »
    Tony, instead of plastic straws I'm sending you a pair of glasses.

    Make'em plastic
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,060
    I appreciate the responses to help me out. Really.

    But I started my inquire with a BOLD sentence stating I didn't see a hump in the 5khz region. All the tweeters are almost the same there. That was the reason for my confusion. I didn't even look at the very high region.

    I said I've heard over the years there was a rise in amplitude around the 5khz. region.
    Is my memory wrong about the all the discussions about why the SL2000 sounds so bad most of the time?

    The 5Khz region is where I was concentrating my curiosity at in the graphs. As you can see and .

    Why would I care about a frequency region I can't hear.

    I do need glasses to read but I have them on almost 100% while at this PC. I had them on looking at Ray's EXCELLENT COMPARISON CHARTS he made from his studies. ;)
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,313
    Tony M wrote: »

    I said I've heard over the years there was a rise in amplitude around the 5khz. region.
    Is my memory wrong about the all the discussions about why the SL2000 sounds so bad most of the time?

    The 5Khz region is where I was concentrating my curiosity at in the graphs. As you can see and.

    Prior to your comment, I had never heard any mention of an amplitude rise in the 5 kHz region. All the discussions I know about were concerning the 5 dB rise in the 13 kHz region.

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • Tony MTony M Posts: 6,060
    I've been through a lot the past 12 years or so and must have forgotten graphs from the past show what you found in your study.

    I just searched the SL2000 and found a bunch of threads. But I only clicked on one and read down and saw what you just said. The hump at 13khz. was a know fact. But a few posts down, a member stated old tweeters deteriorated and produced bad things lower than that frequency.

    Maybe I picked up on some others saying the same thing in other threads. Here 's the post in that one thread that maybe my old brain picked up on and agreed with. I see the graph you made. There's NO disputing the fact of what you recorded is what that tweeter produced.

    I'm not even going to look at any other threads beside the one I decided to click on first.
    I think I found my answer. SL2000's in bad worn shape might produce humps from 13khz and other frequencies lower or higher as they deteriorate.

    ben62670 Posts: 16,077
    June 2008 edited June 2008
    Its not just the 12k bump. The SL2000 deteriorates with age more like milk than whiskey. They are not just harsh at the bump, but the breakup/harshness is heard in lower frequency ranges. Look at the schematic, and at least replace the two tweeters that run near full range. Remember give them time to burn in. They are fairly harsh in the beginning.
    Ben
    Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,313
    80wcz35btelm.jpg
    Figure 14. SL2000 and RD0194 frequency response curves.

    gmr8kpgim3e3.jpg
    Figure 15. SL3000 and RD0198 frequency response curves.

    alu4lm93lb6a.jpg
    Figure 16. SL2500 and SL3000 frequency response curves.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,313
    edited August 24
    SL1000 Further Measurements

    In figure 12, thought the SL1000's roll off after 10 kHz was odd compared to the other tweeters. Fortunately I have three other SL1000s. Their high frequency response is much closer to the other tweeters.

    The SL1000 in the original measurements is SL1000 #4. The T-S parameters of SL1000 #4 were similar to those of the other three SL1000s.

    1a5s6ot4aqgf.jpg
    Figure 17. The response of the four SL1000s is close until #4 breaks away after 10 kHz.

    jjtxf0qc81gl.jpg
    Figure 18. Plot of all six tweeters with original (#4) SL1000. Black line: RD0194. Red line: RD0198. Light blue line: SL1000 #4. Green line: SL2000. Purple line: SL2500. Dark blue line: SL3000.

    ldrwl2qsixre.jpg
    Figure 18. Plot of all six tweeters with SL1000 #3. Black line: RD0194. Red line: RD0198. Light blue line: SL1000 #3. Green line: SL2000. Purple line: SL2500. Dark blue line: SL3000.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 19,015
    Do you have any reference tweeters that are different than this cadre to test?
    I wonder if 5-ish kHz dip is endemic to these tweeters or an artifact of the test.

    PS PM me if you'd like my YT video post above removed from this reference thread, & I'll ask Ken to remove it (or feel free to ask him to do it yourself)! I apologize for decreasing the S/N of this fine thread!

  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,208
    Excellent write up DK! Very informative, thank you for your efforts.
  • westmassguywestmassguy Posts: 6,115
    Ray, was that oddball SL1000 the one that I sent you?
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  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,313
    Ray, was that oddball SL1000 the one that I sent you?

    No. I did not do FR measurements on your loaner. The oddball was one of four that I purchased from Dr. Wu.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
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