Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 CD player

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  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 10,817
    heiney9 wrote: »
    In the hey day I guess re-branding is not the correct term. Outsourcing is a better term. Back then no one really cared if the tube was manufactured by RCA or GE. If GE is was low in supply of a particular tube they might contract RCA or Raytheon to make the tube while putting their logo on it. And vice-versa of course.

    I've seen Hamburg made Valvo's with a Zenith logo on them. They weren't trying to be shifty, they just needed tubes for their inventory.
    I believe a good example of this would be the 5692 tubes. Depends on who you believe but it would seem all were made by RCA yet CBS and Sylvania both had the tube but they had different color bases from the RCA tubes but same construction. Like Brock said many companies bought tubes branded for them from other manufacturers. Rebranding is when you purposely wipe off the old label to now give it a new more expensive and desirable name to fraudulently get more money for the lessor tube.
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 2,522
    @Clipdat - Stay tuned, this is where I got a ton of startup knowledge on tubes. I knew a little when I started, and, still know very little, but, it's certainly not for lack of good info shared here. Some great forum members have been very generous in their help, some even sharing tubes so I could get an idea of that particular tubes "flavor." There is a learning curve for home audio tubes, but, it's a fun journey and can be very eye opening. What I once looked at as a "hassle" and, possibly daunting, I now consider fun and something I look forward to. It's amazing what can happen to your sound from one set of tubes to the next.

    LET THE FUN BEGIN!
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
    Dual SVS SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,712
    Opened it up and took more photos of the mystery tubes. It looks like it says either "Sold New" or "Gold New" in cursive writing and then 6DJ8/ECC88 W. GERMANY.

    bhzq6cmq7wd2.jpg
    xxubhb2g1qhp.jpg
    1q71aee4imdt.jpg
    Got Dayens?
  • lightman1lightman1 Posts: 9,858
    Brock is a blowhard know-it-all.....
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,712
    I finally figured out what the cursive writing says: "Gold Aero"

    Here's another with the same logo:

    s-l1600.jpg

    s-l1600.jpg
    Got Dayens?
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,712
    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0602/karlskorner.htm

    "Gold Aero does not and did not manufacture tubes. They purchased from different manufacturers, tested and graded them and then priced them accordingly. I still have a pair of their "platinum grade" 12 AX7 tubes that were $100 apiece many, many years ago and were obviously of Chinese origin. Dick had reason to believe his Gold Aero tubes were of German manufacture, probably the famous Siemens or Siemens & Halske brand name."
    Got Dayens?
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,712
    edited June 13
    It looks like that dimpled disc getter is also used by Mullard and Amperex.

    bst30xvalbkm.jpg

    DSCN5229.jpg

    Mullard+ECC88+6DJ8+1976+A-Frame+Dimple+Disc+Getter+Orange+Globe+Amperex+Label+Tektronix+Select+-+Blackburn+Gt_+Britain.jpg

    Amperex+Philips+ECC88+6DJ8+1970s+A-Frame+Dimple+Disc+Getter+Orange+Globe+1+-+Heerlen+Holland.jpg


    Got Dayens?
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 40,369
    edited June 13
    I had some Gold Aero some type in here once...I believe they ended up in the trash.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 2,522
    My aunt had a gold arrow
    vmb8i964fvyh.jpg
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
    Dual SVS SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,981
    edited June 13
    kharp1 wrote: »
    My aunt had a gold arrow
    vmb8i964fvyh.jpg


    One can imagine her kids staring longingly at the Yugos and Gremlins in the shopping center parking lot.


    JK, as they say... :)
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    edited June 13
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    heiney9 wrote: »
    In the hey day I guess re-branding is not the correct term. Outsourcing is a better term. Back then no one really cared if the tube was manufactured by RCA or GE. If GE is was low in supply of a particular tube they might contract RCA or Raytheon to make the tube while putting their logo on it. And vice-versa of course.

    I've seen Hamburg made Valvo's with a Zenith logo on them. They weren't trying to be shifty, they just needed tubes for their inventory.
    I believe a good example of this would be the 5692 tubes. Depends on who you believe but it would seem all were made by RCA yet CBS and Sylvania both had the tube but they had different color bases from the RCA tubes but same construction. Like Brock said many companies bought tubes branded for them from other manufacturers. Rebranding is when you purposely wipe off the old label to now give it a new more expensive and desirable name to fraudulently get more money for the lessor tube.

    Yes, 5691 and 5692 (6SL7 and 6SN7 equivalents) were made by RCA and many were re-branded/outsourced. There is also information in a GE manual to suggest they *might* have also made them. But, I think the concensous is that RCA produced many, if not all of them.

    RCA - Special Red tubes

    RCA_Red_Cover.jpg
    RCA_Red_Cover_3.jpg
    RCA_Red_Cover_1.jpg
    RCA_Red_Cover_2.jpg

    I have a couple pairs of 5691's and they are built like a brick doo-doo house. They sound great too! Among my top 5 favorite 6SL7 type

    H9






    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,981
    ^^^ Great tubes, those :)
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    edited June 13
    Clipdat wrote: »
    It looks like that dimpled disc getter is also used by Mullard and Amperex.

    bst30xvalbkm.jpg

    DSCN5229.jpg

    Mullard+ECC88+6DJ8+1976+A-Frame+Dimple+Disc+Getter+Orange+Globe+Amperex+Label+Tektronix+Select+-+Blackburn+Gt_+Britain.jpg

    Amperex+Philips+ECC88+6DJ8+1970s+A-Frame+Dimple+Disc+Getter+Orange+Globe+1+-+Heerlen+Holland.jpg


    2nd and 3rd photo you can see the tube codes. Ironically the Mullard labeled tubes were made in Holland and the Amperex labeled tubes were made in Blackburn England. Perfect example of what I mean about labels not being helpful at determining manufacturer origin.

    If a 12AU7 or 12AX7 has a dimple getter it means it's very late production. I just don't know that much about the 6DJ8 tube construction to comment.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    edited June 13
    Clipdat wrote: »
    I finally figured out what the cursive writing says: "Gold Aero"

    Here's another with the same logo:

    s-l1600.jpg

    s-l1600.jpg

    These appear to be made by EI in Yugoslavia.

    The photo's of your tubes are still to dark to see anything. Is there any sort of an etched code towards the bottom of the tubes? That's the only way I can comment since I don't know the construction cues like other tubes.

    But yes, Gold Aero are rebranded tubes. They could be made by RFT in West Germany or Telefunken or Siemens. If I had to guess, it's likely RFT if they are truly made in West Germany.

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,981
    I was thinkin' Siemens (FWIW) -- I think (??) some of the RCA-branded [West] German 6DJ8s I have from AES are Siemens-made.
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    edited June 13
    If they are Siemens, then they aren't much different than the pair he just bought from Brent Jesse. I guess that was my point, find out what you already have so you don't spend a lot of $$$ on the same/similar thing.

    I have found in the past tube rolling in a cdp or dac is a very subtle change compared to an amp or pre-amp. Of course this is "in general" as each piece is different.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    ^^^ Great tubes, those :)

    Indeed! Triple mica, reinforcing rods, low loss micanol bases. Holding them in your hand you notice the "heft".

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,712
    The tubes were super hard to photograph for some reason. I was even using the flash on my phone and I had to take several before I even got those three relatively clear ones that I posted.

    So, I tried looking at that code in gray at the bottom, but it looked like the first character was rubbed off. The other two were really hard to make out what they might be as well.

    I'll look again when I put in the new tubes and if I can read the digits I'll post them.
    heiney9 wrote: »
    The photo's of your tubes are still to dark to see anything. Is there any sort of an etched code towards the bottom of the tubes? That's the only way I can comment since I don't know the construction cues like other tubes.

    But yes, Gold Aero are rebranded tubes. They could be made by RFT in West Germany or Telefunken or Siemens. If I had to guess, it's likely RFT if they are truly made in West Germany.

    H9

    Got Dayens?
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    The ones you got from Brent won't have codes, they are too new. But take a look, anything is possible from about the mid-70's on.

    The fact that the old ones might have had codes means they are older and probably pretty good tubes (assuming they aren't worn out)

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,712
    Ah, yeah, sorry I meant I would check the Gold Aeros for their codes again when I swap them, but I was having a hell of a time trying to read what they were last night. :(

    Got Dayens?
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    GAx = production code for the ECC88

    7Lx = production code for the E88CC

    "x" being the change code (0,1,2,A,B,C etc)

    D getter and D getter w/pinched waist are early

    ring getter is middle dated

    closed getter is later

    closed getter w/dimples is later yet.

    This is general information for the Euro made tubes by Holland, Munich and Hamburg Germany and England.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,712
    Thanks man!
    Got Dayens?
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    Clipdat wrote: »
    Ah, yeah, sorry I meant I would check the Gold Aeros for their codes again when I swap them, but I was having a hell of a time trying to read what they were last night. :(

    Sometimes a pen light and angle viewing is the best way to see.

    The main thing is in the second line of code if they are Siemens the first character will be an = with a vertical line through. Top line is most likely GAB or GAC, that's the indicator it is an ECC88 as well as what revision.

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    edited June 13
    Here's another guide to try and navigate the ECC88/E88CC tube land.

    http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/SieTel E88CC/E88CC.htm

    If you look at all the examples in the above link. None of the Siemens tubes have the "A" frame style support for the getter.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    Another resource to use. Photo identification is the key here.

    http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/main.php
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 18,981
    heiney9 wrote: »
    If they are Siemens, then they aren't much different than the pair he just bought from Brent Jesse. I guess that was my point, find out what you already have so you don't spend a lot of $$$ on the same/similar thing.

    I have found in the past tube rolling in a cdp or dac is a very subtle change compared to an amp or pre-amp. Of course this is "in general" as each piece is different.

    H9

    Yup, and I think you made your point rather clearly, too! :)

    ... and I concur 100% (FWIW).
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    Siemens-Rohr tubes in the blue and yellow boxes could be from anywhere and most times it's just very mediocre tubes that have been re-branded.

    My very first pair of tubes I bought (with very little to no knowledge) was a pair of Siemens-Rohr ECC85, NOS. Used those in the first Dared/Fatman MP-5 amp. Years later I learned they were mediocre tubes at best and had nothing to do with "real" Siemens tubes. Had the D74 stamp. I paid a lot for them too relatively speaking.

    Also bought a pair of EL34's, same box, same D74 chalk on the glass. They were not Siemens tubes, but they turned out not to be so bad. They were later Tesla made E34L's that were pretty darn good...........not a pair of Siemens EL34's, however.

    H9

    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,712
    Do you guys think I should bother swapping in those JAN Philips 6922 tubes just to get an idea of their sound, in order to figure out what direction I want to go in?

    Then, when the Siemens arrive, I'll have a better idea of their sound signature, so I can see if I want to stay with those or go to Amperex Bugle Boys, etc.
    Got Dayens?
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 23,860
    edited June 13
    Yes! Absolutely! Look for your sound and learn what you like and don't like. Give all of them a good listen. Take your time, don't rush it.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 4,712
    I'm a little worried that they're all going to sound "really good" to me, and I won't be able to discern any differences. :)

    I have extremely sensitive hearing, but I'm beginning to think that it means nothing if I don't know what to "listen for".
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Yes! Absolutely! Look for your sound and learn what you like and don't like. Give all of them a good listen.

    Got Dayens?
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