Had a very unsavory discussion with a member of the audiophile community today

stangman67

Polkies,

Figured I'd share this with you as I found the whole premise of this to be immoral.

As many of you know at this point I recently purchased a Backert Labs Rhumba 1.1, the guys over at Backert Labs have been absolutely fantastic to work with. Andy has been incredibly helpful to me as I learn this whole tube thing. I am in the searching a set of tubes for the Rhumba that will suit my tastes and my equipment, in this I purchased a set of RCA 5814wa's from a reputable company that many of you are very familiar with. I am not going to name said company outright as I find that distasteful but if you search in my threads in the 2 channel section, you fill find out. In fact I am sure many of you will know just by some of the things the guy said.

Anyway, the owner of the company called me today while I was at work after he noticed I listed the Rhumba 1.1 as the equipment I was buying the tubes for. I was expecting him to ask what I was trying to accomplish and maybe recommend a better tube for what I was trying to do. Instead in a very elaborate 15 minute (one sided) conversation, he told me that the Rhumba was not a very nice piece of equipment and that I should return if still able and buy a Primaluna, which he sells at his shop. Went on to say that the Rhumba should be selling for half of what they sell it at. Spoke very highly of his "over 40 years experience" and how he knows what he is talking about. He claimed that the Primaluna was a superior unit due to the 15 pounds heavier that it weighs and the point to point wiring and the fact that it uses tube rectification and yada yada yada. He also stated that Backert Labs use poor rotary source select switches that allow bleed in between sources and even went on to said that users in populous areas could pick up interference due to radio stations with the style switch. Seems pretty outlandish to me but I don't claim to be an audio engineer. He told me I could tell the quality of the unit just by looking at the pictures of the innards of both units and a bunch of other stuff. I think you get the point and probably know who I am talking about.


I was very taken aback by this and frankly offended as I spent my hard earned money on a quality piece of equipment and he thought it was acceptable to bash the equipment and company. The sales tactic of bashing another company is a demonstration of the type of person this guy is. I cancelled my tube order with him and will never be doing business with said company or representative. Honestly it just pains me to see this type of thing in the community where for the most part everybody is great. The stark difference from the(awesome) people at Backert Labs and this company is eye opening.

Anyway, I'll get off my soap box. Thanks for listening, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts

Zach

Clipdat

Sounds like Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio was trying a little too hard to make a... deal.

Moose68Bash

I was one of the several members of this Forum who auditioned the Rhumba, when the folks at Backert Labs graciously allowed us to do so.

I affirm everything you said: First, Andy and Backert Labs were great to deal with. They made improvements in the Rhumba based on members' comments and quickly dealt with any problem that came up int he course of the audition units' peregrinations around the country for several weeks.

Second, as I said in my review of the sound quality of the Rhumba and as virtually every other reviewer said, the Rhumba is a quality unit with excellent sound quality.

Like you, I my BS (not "Bachelor of Science") detectors immediate go on emergency alert as soon as any sales guy starts bad mouthing a product he/she does not sell or manufacture, if you are talking to a manufacturer. That kind of behavior just doesn't pass the smell test.

You did the right thing.

MrBuhl

Yep agreed - I had the Rhumba and thought it was solid, as were Andy and Backert throughout the whole test. If you were to Google for a sometimes difficult reputation online, I would be willing to bet you'd get a lot more knocks on the afformentioned seller than Backert.

Clipdat

It's too bad I missed out on the Rhumba demo! Sounds like a really nice pre.

MrBuhl wrote: »

Yep agreed - I had the Rhumba and thought it was solid, as were Andy and Backert throughout the whole test. If you were to Google for a sometimes difficult reputation online, I would be willing to bet you'd get a lot more knocks on the afformentioned seller than Backert.

kharp1

When you mentioned this company as a source I bit my tongue so as to not look petty, but, you are not the first horror story I've heard about that company. Basically, they're great as long as it's in the "courting" stage, but, can be terrible when things don't go their way, or, you have an issue.

mhardy6647

I'll defer comment other than to say that denigrating the competition, while a very common sales tactic, isn't a very good one.

One thing I always liked about Soundscape - they wouldn't speak ill of good products sold by their competitors (in the hotly-competitive hifi days of the 1970s).

Oops, I'll say one other thing -- I've never been very favorably disposed towards Primaluna -- and I will leave it at that.

verb

I was impressed by the generosity of the Rhumba audition when reading that thread. Kinda cool, getting updates on Polkies shipping or meeting F2F every step of the way to give the baton to the next guy.

That epitomizes customer service.

Joey_V

I dislike Kevin Deal

I called him one time last year about Pope 6sn7 tubes, I bought a cary slp98 f1 from him in the past.

Guy treated me like dirt.

Something like you’re not worth my time on the phone.


Never buying anything from Upscale ever.

Viking64

I just did a search for this guy and you can tell a lot about who he is in the first few seconds of his videos.

halo

This is an all to common occurrence with Upscale Audio and Kevin Deal. I’ve never purchased anything from him because his reputation as a less than honorable salesperson precedes him. Forget that guy.

nooshinjohn

Be careful what you post guys... he might see this thread someday, decide to become a member here and then cry to the mods. Bannings can be handed down decades later and you won't even know what for.

msg

Man, almost looks like he works for PrimaLuna, or comes just short of it.

Alright, I just viewed a short clip of one of his vids just to see who this guy is. I agree, he definitely comes across as a - well, pick whichever pejorative you like; any would probably fit - but not like that's unusual in this hobby.

Jerky dBaggerism and unsavory sales tactics aside, I gotta ask, is there any truth to what he was saying? Point to point wiring besting PCB and ribbon cables, for example?

tratliff

I have also had bad dealings with him. Talked down to me because I was trying to get a new set of tubes for my Cary SLP-05.

Basically he tried to tell me the same about the build quality vs a Primaluna. And he is a Cary dealer, just not who I originally purchased from. I lost all respect for him and upscale then.

Many dealers in the world who want to help. Just move on and don’t look back.

stangman67

msg wrote: »

Man, almost looks like he works for PrimaLuna, or comes just short of it.

Alright, I just viewed a short clip of one of his vids just to see who this guy is. I agree, he definitely comes across as a - well, pick whichever pejorative you like; any would probably fit - but not like that's unusual in this hobby.

Jerky dBaggerism and unsavory sales tactics aside, I gotta ask, is there any truth to what he was saying? Point to point wiring besting PCB and ribbon cables, for example?

He does, he is the Primaluna USA importer so he has a definite stake in all of this. Just terrible business practices. I'm sure there are plenty of people that buy into his crap, but its bad for our hobby overall

mhardy6647

msg wrote: »

Man, almost looks like he works for PrimaLuna, or comes just short of it.

Alright, I just viewed a short clip of one of his vids just to see who this guy is. I agree, he definitely comes across as a - well, pick whichever pejorative you like; any would probably fit - but not like that's unusual in this hobby.

Jerky dBaggerism and unsavory sales tactics aside, I gotta ask, is there any truth to what he was saying? Point to point wiring besting PCB and ribbon cables, for example?

Well -- Point to point is generally better than PCBs, yes* and ribbon cables have no business in (and generally aren't found in) analog circuitry. Both are "value engineering" tactics, to reduce price and assembly costs.

AFAIK, Primaluna is Upscale's house brand -- isn't it?

___________
* Think about that signal some of y'all coddle with expensive interconnects travelin' around inside an amplifier on a little printed (etched, more accurately) ribbon of metal foil, unshielded from any stray inductance or EM fields on a PC board. Sound like a good idea to you?

PCBs are OK, though, and they're pretty much a necessary evil when it comes to most solid state circuitry, which is just too darned complex to wire P2P without looking like something that a dog vomited up.

heiney9

I don't care for Upscale Audio. Will never do business with them. They overhype their tubes also. Kevin is the typical salesperson.

msg

Ah. That makes sense on the trash and hard sell.
I agree, and I'm truly sorry for the experience you had with this guy. Awful.

I'm fairly certain he kicks cats any chance he gets, and trash talks his mom's cooking daily just to make her cry.

stangman67

I don't mind my experience, I'm glad I realized what he and his company were all about early. I feel for the brands he trashes and unethically steals business from

mhardy6647

As to SS vs. vacuum tube rectification, it's pretty much a push. There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches. In the old days, it wasn't uncommon to find amps using both topologies (e.g., vacuum tube for HV, and solid state for bias supplies and DC filaments for small-signal circuits). Some of the finest commercial vacuum tube amplifiers ever made (I'm lookin' at you, Marantz 8B!) used solid state rectification only.

mhardy6647

coda: Just buy tubes from someone like Brent Jesse or Jim McShane.

stangman67

Yup, I've been perusing Brent Jessee's site and have picked out a few that interest me. Particularly some long plate square getter Mullards, which cost a pretty penny but seem to offer exactly what I am looking for sound signature wise

Clipdat

The reason why he delayed your online order and didn't process it in a timely fashion, is because he wanted to get you on the phone in order to trash talk Backert?! That is a ridiculous way of doing business. Like he won't sell you his "prized" tubes because he doesn't want them going into an inferior Backert product. WTF??

txcoastal1

^^^He's a great guy ...sometimes a few $$ more but for the chat and service...priceless

stangman67

Clipdat wrote: »

The reason why he delayed your online order and didn't process it in a timely fashion, is because he wanted to get you on the phone in order to trash talk Backert?! That is a ridiculous way of doing business. Like he won't sell you his "prized" tubes because he doesn't want them going into an inferior Backert product. WTF??

I don't think that's why the order was delayed. I think he got a bit behind because everytime someone buys tubes and doesn't list a primaluna product as the receptor, he calls them and pulls this sham he tried to pull on me. Its certainly a strategy and obviously it works.

I mean just read this ****! https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/rogue-audio-cronus-magnum-kt120-model-used

Dude is off his rocker, seeing how much used stuff he has to sell, this strategy must work more often than not. I am glad I'm not a dimwitted fool. I listened to the Primaluna stuff, and while it sounded good, I do not think I am missing out in the slightest. And something can be said for a company that just has good people at the helm rather than this Kevin character

Clipdat

Wow, even slamming a product that he's trying to sell. I'm sure that'll help it move real fast.

He didn't question my order for two 6sn7 tubes when I put "Schiit Saga" on the order.

Come to think of it, he probably recognized that as a sign that I had little to no money for Primaluna gear, so he wisely passed me by

stangman67 wrote: »

I don't think that's why the order was delayed. I think he got a bit behind because everytime someone buys tubes and doesn't list a primaluna product as the receptor, he calls them and pulls this sham he tried to pull on me. Its certainly a strategy and obviously it works.

I mean just read this ****! https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/rogue-audio-cronus-magnum-kt120-model-used

Dude is off his rocker, seeing how much used stuff he has to sell, this strategy must work more often than not. I am glad I'm not a dimwitted fool. I listened to the Primaluna stuff, and while it sounded good, I do not think I am missing out in the slightest. And something can be said for a company that just has good people at the helm rather than this Kevin character

tonyb

stangman67 wrote: »

Yup, I've been perusing Brent Jessee's site and have picked out a few that interest me. Particularly some long plate square getter Mullards, which cost a pretty penny but seem to offer exactly what I am looking for sound signature wise

Good , don't hesitate to email the dude with questions either. He also has tubes not on that list.
Sucks with the bad experience. Very unprofessional. Primaluna makes good products too, but the Rhumba has the benefit of a great company and service behind it while also being local to you. Bob and Andy....hard to find better guys to deal with.

As Far as quality concerns go...like I always say...I don't care if there is 2 squirrels on a wheel inside, it's the sound that counts....and the Rhumba has it.

Let me add, that the more you dive into audio, the more you'll get those who will knock your choices. If you do your research, put some weight to ears you trust, you can't go wrong. Audio is a journey, a path of discovery....we all do it at different speed.

kharp1

DSkip wrote: »

He has a questionnaire for the tubes? Sorry you had to go through that Zach. I got this unit first and while it was definitely not fully worked in when I had it, I could tell it was going to blossom. I was happy to see you got one. I had a talk with Andy a few months ago out of the blue and it was good. We should get him down for LSAF.

As a company there are brands I don't like to see clients buy into and it can range from poor quality to poor sound to bad people to work with to poor customer service. I try to be selective and let clients know if they begin venturing that way but it's a tightrope to walk. Once a purchase is made, it no longer matters and I simply wish them the best.

Oh that is just total bunk right there. After I bought the Hello Kitty boom box, that has quite a following on here I might add, you called me up and woke me up in the middle of the night saying all kinds of crazy stuff. Anything from "is your refrigerator running" to "what color underwear are you wearing."

pitdogg2

Yea like you wear underwear Kerry i call bs right there.

F1nut

In the past I purchased quite a number of tubes from Kevin, tubes that were hard to find, but he had them. I never experienced anything close to what is being described. He was always pleasant and I enjoyed discussing a bit of audio with him.

lightman1

F1nut wrote: »

In the past I purchased quite a number of tubes from Kevin, tubes that were hard to find, but he had them. I never experienced anything close to what is being described. He was always pleasant and I enjoyed discussing a bit of audio with him.

Because you are both of the same ilk......you just lack the ability to perceive it amongst the "commin folk" like us.