Experimenting with room treatment

I recently read where my Martin Logans could benefit from sound absorbtion behind them. I really don't want to spend hundreds on anything at this point but thought I'd experiment with a less expensive option.
I bought 2 cases of these Auralex Acoustics SonoFlat Acoustic Absorption Foam, in the 2" x 12" x 12" size. They are only $80 for a case of 14 panels and with some rewards and rebates I had available on Amazon I got 2 cases for under $60.
The next step was to figure out how to attach them to the walls. I decided to go with some 1"x 24" x 48" styrofoam panels and mount the acoustic foam squares to them. They were the perfect size to fit exactly 8 of the 12 x 12 squares to and I figured I could possibly hang the styrofoam on the walls using some picture hangers or something like that so I wouldn't do any permanent damage to the walls. Plus it would allow me to move them around easily if needed. However, after some research I decided to go with 1 3/4" T-Pins. These make very small, pin-size holes in the wall and secure the styrofoam very well. I could then just glue the acoustic panels to the styrofoam.
Here are some pics of my progress so far. As you can see, the left wall is wider than the right wall so I'll have to come up with a solution on that side which will likely just involve some trimming.
osocedvia90z.jpg
va6uw1dg0pjt.jpg
lmdnlo01qdj0.jpg
y5x18kfoh7xj.jpg
____________________________
2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio DirectStream, Intona USB Isolator, Asus EEEBox running JRiver, Tom Tutay modded EE Minimax pre, Furman Elite 15 Pfi power conditioner, Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, Kimber 4TC speaker wire, Gabriel Gold Reflection V2 IC's, VH Audio Flavor 4 x 2, Flavor 2 and Pepster power cords
Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors

Comments

  • dragon1952dragon1952 Posts: 4,368
    The cool thing about mounting the panels onto the 1" styrofoam is that it gave me an extra inch of sound absorption.
    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio DirectStream, Intona USB Isolator, Asus EEEBox running JRiver, Tom Tutay modded EE Minimax pre, Furman Elite 15 Pfi power conditioner, Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, Kimber 4TC speaker wire, Gabriel Gold Reflection V2 IC's, VH Audio Flavor 4 x 2, Flavor 2 and Pepster power cords
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors
  • vmaxervmaxer Posts: 4,216
    Did improve the sound?
    Pio Elete Pro 520
    Panamax 5400-EX
    Sunfire TGP 5
    Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
    PS Audio GCPH phono pre
    Sunfire CG 200 X 5
    Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
    OPPO BDP-83 SE
    SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
    Ctr CS1000p
    Sur - FX1000 x 4
    SUB - SVS PB2-Plus

    Workkout room:
    Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
    Onkyo TX-DS898
    GFA 555
    Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
    Ft - SDA 1C

    Not being used:
    RTi 38's -4
    RT55i's - 2
    RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
    LSI 15's
    CSi40
    PSW 404
  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 6,545
    Which Logans do you have?
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs DAC2x and TSDX Transport -> Cary SLP-05 preamp -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Old Gear:
    Speakers: BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source: Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification: Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased)
    Amplification: HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer: Infinity Entra2 sub -> SVS 25-31PC+ sub
  • dragon1952dragon1952 Posts: 4,368
    edited January 28
    This is a project that isn't finished yet. I'll update with results later next week. I had to order more panels. Also, I'm not sure how well this set up might work for other speakers. Supposedly this particular 2" acoustic foam doesn't work well enough for bass traps as it doesn't absorb frequencies in the bass/sub-bass range all that well. I'm not sure how much the extra 1" of styrofoam might help in that area, if at all. I'm more concerned with the reflection from the panels off the back wall.
    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio DirectStream, Intona USB Isolator, Asus EEEBox running JRiver, Tom Tutay modded EE Minimax pre, Furman Elite 15 Pfi power conditioner, Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, Kimber 4TC speaker wire, Gabriel Gold Reflection V2 IC's, VH Audio Flavor 4 x 2, Flavor 2 and Pepster power cords
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors
  • BlueMDPickerBlueMDPicker Old Polk Posts: 6,982
    edited January 28
    I believe Roger Sanders is credited with the design of the curved panel ESL's at ML. I don't know what his placement philosophy is for them. But, with respect to his later designs (Innersound and Sanders Sound) hybrid ESL's (flat ESL panels), here is the placement philosphy from the products manual:

    widf6nynavv5.jpg


  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 6,545
    Be careful about absorbing an uneven frequency spectrum, thin panels or foam with poor absorptive characteristics will take the highs out of your room and leave you with an uneven low midrange and bass.
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Torus RM15 -> Emm Labs DAC2x and TSDX Transport -> Cary SLP-05 preamp -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature) -> new speakers
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3
    Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> Focal Kanta 2

    Old Gear:
    Speakers: BW PM1 (3.5/5), CM10s2 (3.75/5), BW800D3 (5/5), Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source: Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification: Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased)
    Amplification: HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer: Infinity Entra2 sub -> SVS 25-31PC+ sub
  • verbverb Posts: 2,732
    dragon1952 wrote: »
    This is a project that isn't finished yet. I'll update with results later next week. I had to order more panels. Also, I'm not sure how well this set up might work for other speakers. Supposedly this particular 2" acoustic foam doesn't work well enough for bass traps as it doesn't absorb frequencies in the bass/sub-bass range all that well. I'm not sure how much the extra 1" of styrofoam might help in that area, if at all. I'm more concerned with the reflection from the panels off the back wall.

    Looking good so far!!! I plan to do something similar eventually.
    Basement: Polk SDA 1C's, Micro Seiki MB14 TT, Rotel 1580 Pre, Marantz CD6006 CDP, Carver TX8 Tuner, Conrad Johnson MF2300A Amp, Furman 15PFi Power Conditioner, AQ Diamondback (version 1) RCA IC's, MIT Terminator2 Cables
    Office: PC, Marantz AMP-1, Acoustic Technologies Classic Speakers, Polk PSWi225 wireless sub, MIT AVt2 cables, IFI Purifier2, AQ Cinnamon USB cable
    Spare Room: Dayens Ampino Integrated, Auris BluMe, Polk TSi200's
    Living Room: Pioneer SX-N30 Network Receiver, Pioneer PD10AE CD Player, Polk RT265 In Wall Speakers, Polk DSW Pro 660wi Subwoofer
  • dragon1952dragon1952 Posts: 4,368
    I believe Roger Sanders is credited with the design of the curved panel ESL's at ML. I don't know what his placement philosophy is for them. But, with respect to his later designs (Innersound and Sanders Sound) hybrid ESL's (flat ESL panels), here is the placement philosphy from the products manual:

    widf6nynavv5.jpg

    Yeah I did read that 1st part re: the sweet spot and that is the only position I listen from in this particular set up. As for distance to the walls, I'm not familiar with the Eros but just about 100% of what I've read on these says to give them lots of space. I've used the Cardas method of speaker placement in the past and he indicates a further distance from the back wall (the wall the back of the speaker is facing) quote, "Panel or dipole speakers such as Apogees and Magnepans cancel their side waves, so a formula of .618 x the ceiling height can be used for determining placement from the rear wall. Most box speakers radiate low frequencies in all directions thus a formula that places the speaker to rear wall distance at 1.618 the side wall distance should be used." As for the flat panel design Sanders says, "Using a flat panel also results in much less reflected sound, since the bulk of the energy is radiated directly at the listener, minimizing interference from the room's boundaries. "

    Since these are hybrids I used a distance closer to the Cardas recommendation for 'regular' speakers and have them around 4.5 ft out from the wall, and a tad over 2.5 ft from the sides. Unfortunately the only room I have available to me is only 10 ft wide although it has good length of 19' and a 9' ceiling.
    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio DirectStream, Intona USB Isolator, Asus EEEBox running JRiver, Tom Tutay modded EE Minimax pre, Furman Elite 15 Pfi power conditioner, Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, Kimber 4TC speaker wire, Gabriel Gold Reflection V2 IC's, VH Audio Flavor 4 x 2, Flavor 2 and Pepster power cords
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors
  • dragon1952dragon1952 Posts: 4,368
    edited January 28
    Joey_V wrote: »
    Be careful about absorbing an uneven frequency spectrum, thin panels or foam with poor absorptive characteristics will take the highs out of your room and leave you with an uneven low midrange and bass.

    The only data I've found on these acoustic panels indicate a fairly even absorption between around 500 Hz to maybe 10K Hz but, quote " Riverbank Acoustical Laboratories is accredited to perform sound absorption coefficient measurements for the frequency range of 100Hz to 5,000Hz. However, we calculate sound absorption values at additional test frequencies as a service to our clients."
    So their measured/calculated absorption coefficients between around 475-10K Hz appear to only vary within a range of 1 to 1.2 with a very sharp drop-off starting at around 500Hz and below.
    I'm flying by the seat of my pants here and have no idea what I'm doing or what the effect might be but for under $100 I'm willing to experiment. But all indications from what I have read is that these speakers could potentially benefit from some sound absorption behind them.
    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio DirectStream, Intona USB Isolator, Asus EEEBox running JRiver, Tom Tutay modded EE Minimax pre, Furman Elite 15 Pfi power conditioner, Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, Kimber 4TC speaker wire, Gabriel Gold Reflection V2 IC's, VH Audio Flavor 4 x 2, Flavor 2 and Pepster power cords
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 6,815
    edited January 28
    I had flat panel ESL's for several years and tried numerous combinations. Rear wall absorption will improve soundstage and focus at the expense of narrowing the sweet spot.

    The further they are into the room, you deal with delayed rear reflections and comb filtering. InnerSound/Sanders ESL's had an active xover bass amp with an eight foot long folded transmission line bass enclosure that really delivered articulate low and accurate bass.

    When boxed by corners they created a serious bass problem to deal with. No way could I have anything but amps between the InnerSound ESL speakers when boxed by corners. A turntable between the speakers boxed by corners would start to feedback around 70dB.

    Yes, Roger did invent the curved panel but didn't have the coin to patent it. He preferred the flat panel rather than the curved.

    I had to use stacked GIK bass traps in corners when they were corner loaded. They did best on an open wall. I experimented with vertical and horizontal panels behind the speakers too.

    prvevwydehm9.jpg

    This setup had the right speaker on an open wall. There was just a small chimney corner by right speaker before opening into the rest of main level.

    4dqi21pg4r3i.jpg

    This shot gives you a glimpse of the main level beyond right speaker.

    r76plv3f4tyr.jpg




    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • dragon1952dragon1952 Posts: 4,368
    What's with the kangaroo? :^ )
    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio DirectStream, Intona USB Isolator, Asus EEEBox running JRiver, Tom Tutay modded EE Minimax pre, Furman Elite 15 Pfi power conditioner, Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, Kimber 4TC speaker wire, Gabriel Gold Reflection V2 IC's, VH Audio Flavor 4 x 2, Flavor 2 and Pepster power cords
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors
  • dragon1952dragon1952 Posts: 4,368
    But seriously........I don't quite get the concept of leaving open wall spaces between the panels? I know this is typical but wouldn't it be better to have the entire back wall deadened acoustically?
    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio DirectStream, Intona USB Isolator, Asus EEEBox running JRiver, Tom Tutay modded EE Minimax pre, Furman Elite 15 Pfi power conditioner, Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, Kimber 4TC speaker wire, Gabriel Gold Reflection V2 IC's, VH Audio Flavor 4 x 2, Flavor 2 and Pepster power cords
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 6,815
    edited January 28
    dragon1952 wrote: »
    What's with the kangaroo? :^ )

    That's my listening buddy, Jasper. He is one cool cat. :) He is a Texas hybrid transplant, loves a warm amp.

    k7stgnd4nn7x.jpg

    muha3sdxher1.jpg

    Post edited by SCompRacer on
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • dragon1952dragon1952 Posts: 4,368
    He's got a really long tail!
    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio DirectStream, Intona USB Isolator, Asus EEEBox running JRiver, Tom Tutay modded EE Minimax pre, Furman Elite 15 Pfi power conditioner, Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, Kimber 4TC speaker wire, Gabriel Gold Reflection V2 IC's, VH Audio Flavor 4 x 2, Flavor 2 and Pepster power cords
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 6,815
    edited January 28
    dragon1952 wrote: »
    But seriously........I don't quite get the concept of leaving open wall spaces between the panels? I know this is typical but wouldn't it be better to have the entire back wall deadened acoustically?

    I couldn't commit to full rear wall treatment. My buddy Norm (RIP) had the entire back wall treated with his ESL's and I didn't like it. No sparkle so to speak. I was in a listening room that was covered -ceiling and all four walls- with Owen's Corning with speaker fabric over it. He had ML ESL's. IMO think you can go too far with acoustic treatments. Room sweeps help identify frequency dropouts or accentuation which show what you need corrected. You may not achieve totally flat response, but can minimize the peaks and valleys so you don't get hints or severe over attenuation of specific frequencies.
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • ALL212ALL212 Posts: 772
    You think that wrapping his sound damping onto the other wall will help? That was what I was looking at. Might not create a "bass trap" but still might assist. Otherwise you've got the outside walls bouncing stuff around as well.
    Aaron
  • dragon1952dragon1952 Posts: 4,368
    SCompRacer wrote: »
    Room sweeps help identify frequency dropouts or accentuation which show what you need corrected. You may not achieve totally flat response, but can minimize the peaks and valleys so you don't get hints or severe over attenuation of specific frequencies.

    Yeah, this is all likely pretty useless without knowing specifics.

    ____________________________
    2 channel - Parasound A21 amp, PS Audio DirectStream, Intona USB Isolator, Asus EEEBox running JRiver, Tom Tutay modded EE Minimax pre, Furman Elite 15 Pfi power conditioner, Martin Logan Electromotion ESL speakers, Kimber 4TC speaker wire, Gabriel Gold Reflection V2 IC's, VH Audio Flavor 4 x 2, Flavor 2 and Pepster power cords
    Computer - Windows 7/JRiver, Grant Fidelity TubeDac 11, Fostex PMO.4n monitors
  • ALL212ALL212 Posts: 772
    In order to do what Rich is suggesting you'll need equipment. Some kind of mic with analysis equipment. But I think you're on the right track with what you're doing. I would also add sound damping to the side wall as well. I don't think you'll need to come out more than 2 blocks of damping.
    Aaron
  • machonemachone Posts: 971
    My experience with room treatments is my room (19 x 23 x 9 on a slab) needed many panels before I got the desired results. I now have 18 panels total. 14 bass traps (4" thick) and 4 first reflection (2" thick). I used Owens Corning 705 on open frames (nothing covering the sides). Using open frames adds a lot of surface area (50% for bass traps if you only count the front of the panel) making it easy to kill the highs. Over half of my bass traps have FRK (foil back paper) on the outside face or faces to keep the room live.

    It is a lot of work. A lot of trial and error. But now the room is under control and small tweaks now make a big difference in imaging.
    -Bass is much improved; very tight and powerful.
    -Imaging is amazing; speakers disappear and the sound stage is as wide and tall as the room.

    I have never run a sweep. I have the mic and programs but never got around to it.......

    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/177293/acoustic-panel-build#latest
    Mojo Audio Joule v5>>Quantum Byte w/JRiver 21 and Fidelizer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Marantz SA 8005>> Equinox 7>>
    ModWright SWL 9.0 SE Signature >>Equinox 7>>
    Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts PA-6 Elite Mod) >>Belden 5000 10 ga cables>>
    SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modified)...SDA-1A (Fully Modified with Dimensional Tweeter Delete)
    1KVA Dreadnought
    Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
    Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570

    Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
    1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video

    "All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER"
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!