CABLE TALK??

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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 16,837
    The nice thing is everyone in this thread has valid points wether you agree or disagree to some extent, and I would be willing to bet we all still respect one another...

  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    I would be apart of these groups if I went around saying if you don't use audioquest, Kimber or Cardas your stupid mental and shouldn't be on this forum

    Thank god MIT cables are still safe. Jesse would be in deep trouble. :D:p
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • daboyz
    daboyz Posts: 5,206


    I have faithfully endorsed and will continue to endorse Wireworld because they aren't system dependent. They use scientific approaches paired with scopes to build a better cable. Their cables sound good in every system I've tried thus far. A specific cable from them in general might not be the best fit for your system overall, but it's going to get you close. [/quote]

    I'm with Skip on the Wireworld's. Been loving mine. :)
  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,521
    There's certainly a good amount of snake oil out there, let common sense prevail. My personal experiences tell me that the "rule of diminishing returns" comes on pretty quick with cables. Just MY opinion. I've heard differences in some cables, though always relatively subtle; and I have had a lower model cable outperform it's big brother on occasion--for example, I found the AQ Copperhead to sound better than the Diamondback; and heard no difference between Copperhead and Sidewinder.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    I would agree on the "law of diminishing returns' thing. That might also apply to other audio gear as well, especially considering prices of new higher end gear. However one can't simply base price as the limit to ones musical enjoyment.

    Cables do sound different and to what degree depends on the associated gear they are hooked up to. I've had cables where I couldn't tell much a difference between x or y cable, but in anothers system it was more apparent.

    That's why the trial and error thing weighs heavily on most systems. Too many variables to make blanket statements in audio. We all don't have to agree on certain things, and it's ok, we aren't curing cancer here or anything like that. :)
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,346
    I blame Monster Cable for being both a long term curse and a blessing. The curse is their marketing driven business model was a total ripoff but very successful and I think it still negatively affects the image of audio cables. Most of the cables they made were incredibly over priced for the build quality and many of them pure junk that actually diminished sound quality and damaged equipment. Companies like Audioquest, that do have solid engineering behind them, that sell cables in similar locations where Monster salesmen and marketers used to dominate are still negatively affected in the minds of many customers. The blessing was that Monster was one of the original companies to at least pursue better cable design and many others followed. Zip cord still has its place though and I still use it when the application is appropriate.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    Didn’t Polk start the whole cable thing with the Cobra speaker cable?
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited January 2018
    Didn’t Polk start the whole cable thing with the Cobra speaker cable?

    The Cobra Cables (didn't Polk actually buy that design from someone else?) and the Discwashers GoldEns (ahem) interconnects were among the first of the designer wires.

    On the other hand, specialty disciplines (e.g., radio, and extreme high frequency circuitry like radar) required specialty wires a long time ago. Litz wire, e.g., has been around for a long time.
    What has been will be again,
    what has been done will be done again;
    there is nothing new under the sun.

    - Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NIV)

    In total fairness, since hifi audio bandwidth is traditionally recognized as covering more than three orders of magnitude (i.e, at least 20 Hz to 20 kHz), it is pretty intuitive that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to good hifi circuits.

    But, then again, a Collins R-390A radio receiver (much enamored of the CIA and the NSA, probably still today) covers a lot more ground, spectrally-speaking :)

    y57d8fcno07y.png

    (perhaps the best radio ever made -- wish I had one!)

  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited January 2018
    7e6v9hell4po.png


    Havin' trouble trackin' down the genesis of CobraCables. I did come up with this:

    zxs4zkeclxi9.png
    (December 1977)

    source of these scans: http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Audio-Magazine.htm
    (an unbelievable resource)
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    a-ha: August 1977 :)

    r00leh5ss6j2.png
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 7,658
    edited January 2018
    It is often said that the speaker cable from Bob Fulton, the Fulton "Gold" and Fulton "Brown" were the first examples of perfectionist speaker wires. These still sell for high dollar amounts at auction.
    Bob also maintained that the length of speaker wire should be considered with respect to the low frequency capability of the speaker. He recommended that the speaker wire should be 1/2 of the wavelength of the low response of the speaker. Similar to the way radio antennas are calibrated to the radio frequency they're to receive.
    For example if the speaker begins rolling off at the bass at 38Hz, the wavelength at that frequency would be 29.6' so the speaker wire would be 14.8' long to tune the wire to the capability of the speaker.
    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,034
    edited January 2018
    I would love to have one of those tonearms in my secret stash...
    Post edited by nooshinjohn on
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    edited January 2018
    I was never able to figure out how my Discwasher Zerostat anti-static pistol worked. There were no instructions in the package. :(

    476k8w4ybtx8.jpg
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 7,658
    edited January 2018
    The Formula 4 eliminated the problem caused by mechanical bearings at the arm's pivot points which invariably cause sound degradation by having a single damped point. The damping fluid helped stabilized the erratic motion of the arm as the stylus moved up and down and from side-to-side following the uneven surface of the record. It sounded excellent when used with a high compliance cartridge such as the ADC 25.
    The Zerostat has a thin piece of a piezoelectric material which is twisted when you slowly squeeze the trigger releasing ions, both positive and negatively charged, which neutralized any static charge on the record. It is important to slowly squeeze and release the trigger, if you hear a clicking sound that means it was squeezed or released too quickly. I used to do a demonstration with a sweater and balloon. First rubbing the sweater with the balloon, getting it all charged up and sticking to everything, then using the Zerostatic to un-stick the balloon.
  • Jimbo18
    Jimbo18 Posts: 2,310
    My first purchase of good speakers was from a store (Stereo West, I think) in Monterey, Ca. in 1972. A pair of used or demo KLH-5's. Nothing was ever mentioned to me about "good" cables. Seems like back then it was some kind of thin zip cord or lamp cord and that's it.
  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,646
    Thanks, Ken. So, what was the little lightbulb-looking thing-a-ma-jig for? :p
  • You can use it to test the ion flow (sounds pretty Star Trek doesn't it?) by lighting the bulb from the gun. Owners weren't sure what the thing was supposed to do, so Discwasher added that to be able to show what was happening.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    Thanks, Ken, for weighing in on the cables and the Formula 4 arm (of which I have fond memories, by the way).

    On the topic of the Zerostat...

    ecdyf3s2xzvc.png
  • To paraphrase Steve Miller, "Ions keep on flowin', flowin', flowin' into the future".
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    They coulda used James Doohan in their Zerostat ads... but nooooooo...

    https://media.giphy.com/media/ehId2xED1LL8s/giphy.gif
  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,521
    I loved the stylus cleaner brush that came with the Discwasher systems. I had the exact kit shown in the above photo. Ken nailed it, the Zerostat needed to be pulled slowly back, then released slowly.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    BTW The Zerostat's still alive and well.

    https://www.needledoctor.com/Milty-Zerostat-Gun

    Nerd-aside: we used Zerostats in the laboratory (particularly in the wintertime) to de-static-ize really fluffy lyophilized solids when weighing such materials on laboratory balances.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    steveinaz wrote: »
    I loved the stylus cleaner brush that came with the Discwasher systems. I had the exact kit shown in the above photo. Ken nailed it, the Zerostat needed to be pulled slowly back, then released slowly.

    Still use a Discwasher "SC-1" stylus cleaner brush (with a drop of homemade, more-or-less D4 fluid-equivalent). It's a nice, really dense brush.
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,032
    steveinaz wrote: »
    There's certainly a good amount of snake oil out there, let common sense prevail. My personal experiences tell me that the "rule of diminishing returns" comes on pretty quick with cables. Just MY opinion. I've heard differences in some cables, though always relatively subtle; and I have had a lower model cable outperform it's big brother on occasion--for example, I found the AQ Copperhead to sound better than the Diamondback; and heard no difference between Copperhead and Sidewinder.
    Very good observation my friend. I also have come to these types of conclusions.
    The Snake oil statement runs very deep in the wire world. It's a shame to as many companies come up with fancy terms and names for things that don't exist or can be proven on any level.
    There is not many people on this earth who is willing to take the time and listen to hundreds of different wires, Ok maybe I have but I have an unfair advantage over most as I have access to so many lines and they are always willing to send a sample to try out.

    Quality connections and cables are key but once you achieve signal transfer correctly no matter what material, no matter what the companies say you can't make the signal transfer any better. It's just a signal that needs to pass from A to B without adding or taking anything. It's a lot easier then most of us have been led to believe.

    Think about all the crazy wire technology that out there. Then take some common sense and apply. Science really holds a lot of weight when you are trying to get a job done. Once I learned all this I stopped looking for the next best thing and grass greener stuff.

    At the end of the day if your willing to really learn about wire and cables I can teach you. If your in a camp one way or the other I can't teach you anything.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • dolbyd
    dolbyd Posts: 430
    I have recently upgraded all my cables (AQ HDMI/Transparent interconnects) and I have a hook up with a retailer friend.
    When he showed me the discount he could get me I almost lost my lunch. 70-80% off on most cables. He said it’s the highest profit margin in the store.
    I feel they are quality cables and have improved my system but ...Damn! This is not a case of you get what you pay for.
    Main room- RTiA9 x4, CSiA6, in ceiling Atmos RT-70 x4, SVS PC 4000 x2, Marantz 8805A, OPPO 203, Emotiva DR3 G3, Emotiva XPA-2 G3, Emotiva XPA-5 G3, Emotiva X300, Sony 75" 940E, Panasonic Plasma VT50, PS Audio Power Port X2, PS Audio AC-5 x8, AQ Rocket 33 Biwire speaker cables, AQ King Cobra XLR IC, Furman PFi20 W/Cullen cable, SoildSteel S4-4 rack, Gik room treatments

    Office- Legend L600, in ceiling Polk RC80i, Marantz 7704, OPPO 203, Pioneer Elite PDF-59 CD, PSA Stellar 300, Sony 55" 800B, Gik room treatment

    Master BR- Signature ES60, Signature S35 Center, Signature S15 Dolby Height, LSI700 in ceiling, SVS-SB4000, Marantz 5012, Emotiva XPA5 G2, OPPO 203, Pioneer DVL-919 Laser Disc, Sony 55" OLED

    Patio- SDI Atrium8 x3, Emotiva A-100 amps x3
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,032
    tonyb wrote: »
    I dunno Dan, seems to me your doing exactly what you rail against. For instance...

    The real issue with high end wire is the haters actually have valid points. I will go on record to say most of high end wire is pure bull crap.

    Most the haters have little to no experience with higher end cables. You yourself promote AQ cables....and if they didn't matter as you suggest, everything in your rig would be an entry level cable.


    When you spent as much time researching and hanging out with actual Electrical Engineers and manufactures of wire and products like speaker and amp companies as I have, you get to learn what **** is and what real science is behind creating a proper conductor.

    Speculation and opinions abound, but what your saying is those who spend a ton of time and who's actual job it is designing cables is B.S. and their experiences and knowledge mean nothing compared to yours.

    This is why these threads go south because all of you can't get along without shaming each other. There are members in here who gang up on someone who doesn't drink their cool aid and then there are others who like to troll and get a raise out of said camp. Again both sides are just flat out retarded.

    oK, AREN'T YOU DOING THAT RIGHT HERE ?

    I would be apart of these groups if I went around saying if you don't use audioquest, Kimber or Cardas your stupid mental and shouldn't be on this forum. If you don't agree with me I should insult you personally and find ways to make you look worse then you already are. These are things I'm not interested

    Uh....you have said, many times that AQ was the be all end all. If your not interested in cable discussions, there is a simple remedy.....stay the frick out of those discussions.

    Sorry Dan, the hypocrisy is just blaring here.

    You can take my post and interpret it any way you want my friend. I didn't suggest that wire doesn't matter. I don't know how you got that out of what I said as wire matters as much as any other component in your system. Without them you get no sound or video. This whole wire doesn't matter crap is whats old.
    High end wire well look I own a lot of so called high end wire. Some think it's way to high end some think it's entry level. Thats not for me to judge or tell anyone how much to spend on what they like. I won't be buying top of the line cables from audioquest as I see no benefits. I can give tons of examples of when I have found no performance gains or so little the amount of money it takes to get to the so called next level I personally am not willing to spend. I find this to be extremely personal.

    You said:
    Speculation and opinions abound, but what your saying is those who spend a ton of time and who's actual job it is designing cables is B.S. and their experiences and knowledge mean nothing compared to yours.

    Again I don't know how your forming your opinion. I never said peoples jobs who design wire is BS. Who do you think I learned my knowledge of wire from? People who build products from Speakers, amps, Players Video devices of all kinds, Home Automation companies. I have spent decades asking these people questions I wanted to know and what we collectively have talked about on this forum. I wanted to know the truth and for the most part I know the truth about wire and cables. I have voiced it a few times in here my findings. And from what I have learned from actual engineers who actually build the stuff we love, they have told me how much snake oil i out there and there isn't many companies who build proper conductors and more build eye candy and things people want. Nothing wrong with that as long as someone is willing to buy it. These companies would not build these cables is no one was buying them. But again that doesn't mean some of these cables are better then others that don't cost as much. There is a certain electrical point where you can't get the signal there any better of any kind of wire. I'm not interested in owning super high end cables that do absolutely nothing better in my system then the ones I already own. I probably have some cables that are over achievers and thats fine with me as I like them. You know I'm a damn wire nerd I have been for years.

    Then you said:

    Uh....you have said, many times that AQ was the be all end all. If your not interested in cable discussions, there is a simple remedy.....stay the frick out of those discussions.

    Sorry Dan, the hypocrisy is just blaring here.[/quote]
    Again you twist my words to your understanding. Thats fine and all man but I have found audioquest to build wires right from the bottom of the line to be quality and pass along the signal better then anything else on the market. Cardas and Kimber also do a fantastic job and thats it. Other companies might do a good job here and there but none of them are as consistent as these top 3. Over 20 years in the business with experience in so many brands I have seen many failures, many not able to pass along the signal at the length spec'd for a job.
    I'm also not here to make you drink the water dude, I'll give out any advise anyone would like to have and if you don't like what I have to say you can just skip over my posts. We don't all have to get along man. You don't need to realize the truth either, you have your truths and that is perfectly fine. You post them all the time how you feel and I'm not going to sit here and debate your opinions my friend.
    I'm cool either way man.
    My comments about wire threads is when things like this start up and fingers and name calling start. I'm not interested dude.


    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • Although typically denied; I believe it’s always about validation at both ends of the spectrum. Both sides are looking to validate there belief, decision, experience etc. When opposition presents itself validity is threatened and an argument ensues.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,711
    Although typically denied; I believe it’s always about validation at both ends of the spectrum. Both sides are looking to validate there belief, decision, experience etc. When opposition presents itself validity is threatened and an argument ensues.

    Nope, it's always the "naysayers" trying to save others from themselves that causes the agruments.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • F1nut wrote: »
    Although typically denied; I believe it’s always about validation at both ends of the spectrum. Both sides are looking to validate there belief, decision, experience etc. When opposition presents itself validity is threatened and an argument ensues.

    Nope, it's always the "naysayers" trying to save others from themselves that causes the agruments.

    May I present exhibit A.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,711
    Fail.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk