CABLE TALK??

After all these years, why is it that cable talk has to go south? not so much here lately but other audio talk that may be on Facebook or what have you that I might get my read on. it baffles me how many people are bothered how others spend or don't spend their money..

This is in no way to stir the pot here about it, I was just doing some reading and there must be 50 haters on high end cable, and they get ugly like it used to here..

I just don't get all the energy and hatred when there is talk about cables, it sure seems to be worse than talking about religion or politics...
Even if the whole world knows
I don't give a damn about what they think
I don't have to stand up to your gun
I don't have to sit down when you say
Tell me I'm overboard
The truth is you just want to see me sink
If there's any room left on that ship
You don't have to save any room for me
Cause I've got my own boat (even when it rains)
I'm doing my own thing (even when it rains)
And I will stay afloat - even when it rains
Cause I've got my own boat
Row, row your boat
Row, row your boat
Row your boat
«13456

Comments

  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 5,758
    edited January 3
    It’s a few things.

    People don’t find the value in paying a premium for wire.

    People don’t bother to try premium wire.

    People aren’t open to challenging their preconceived notions.

    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Emm Labs DAC2x and TSDX Transport -> Cary SLP-05 preamp -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature B) ) -> new speakers -> :D
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3 -> :o
    Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> B&W PM1 -> o:)

    Old Gear:
    Speakers: Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source: Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification: Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased)
    Amplification: HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer: Infinity Entra2 sub -> SVS 25-31PC+ sub
  • rooftop59rooftop59 Posts: 3,791
    edited January 3
    Fine discrimination takes time, effort, and money to develop, whether that be food, wine, music, art, anything involving sense perception. Tony has it right, most of us don’t have the time or money to really develop fine discrimination. And yes, social media just means everyone’s a critic, even when they have never even tried to develop their palates.
    HT Rig:
    Yamaha RX-A1010; Parasound HCA-1000a; Arcam rDac; Mains: PSB Imagine Mini + MartinLogan Dynamo (original) sub; Center - Def Tech Procenter 1000; Heights, Center Surround - Klipsch KHC - 6 In-Ceiling; Surrounds - Monoprice in-ceiling; Sub - SVS PB10-ISD; Sony BDP-S390, FireTV gen 2

    Master Bedroom
    Marantz SR-5007; Audiosource Amp Two, Dynaudio Emit 10, NHT Super One CI, ACI Titan subwoofer, FireTV, Arcam rDac; Bryson BPD-1
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 28,034
    Joey_V wrote: »
    It’s a few things.

    People don’t find the value in paying a premium for wire.

    People don’t bother to try premium wire.

    People aren’t open to challenging their preconceived notions.

    LOL...YA know, it wasn't long ago you were one of those people. Glad you finally saw the light. :)
    ERA D-5
    B&K 1403
    Cary Xciter dac
    Joule LA-100
    SVS SB-2000 SUB
    Sony 4k bdp
    Sony 4k 55 850c
    FX 500 surround
    Acoustic zen Satori SC's
    Pioneer elite vsx21
    Sonos-Cullen mod.
    Audio Metallurgy GA-0 digital
    PS Audio Quintet
    Analysis Plus crystal ovals
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2's IC
    Wireworld eclipse 7 Ic's
  • Joey_VJoey_V Posts: 5,758
    tonyb wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    It’s a few things.

    People don’t find the value in paying a premium for wire.

    People don’t bother to try premium wire.

    People aren’t open to challenging their preconceived notions.

    LOL...YA know, it wasn't long ago you were one of those people. Glad you finally saw the light. :)

    I know... but I’m happy I saw the light. I was really really REALLY anti-cables.

    Now I caress my AQ Wels.
    Joey's Gear:
    Current Gear:
    Emm Labs DAC2x and TSDX Transport -> Cary SLP-05 preamp -> Boulder 2060 stereo amp (w/ Audioquest WEL Signature B) ) -> new speakers -> :D
    Rotel RA1592 Super Integrated -> Sonus Faber Olympica 3 -> :o
    Rotel RC1570 preamp -> Rotel RB1582 amp -> B&W PM1 -> o:)

    Old Gear:
    Speakers: Rockport Aviors (5/5), Sonus Faber Stradivari (5/5), BW 802D2 (4.5/5), Martin Logan Summits (4.25/5), Martin Logan Vantage (4/5), Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor (3.75/5), AV123 Strata Mini (3.5/5), ML Mosaic (3.25/5), Onix Ref1 (3/5), Sonus Faber Concerto (2.75/5), SF Concertino (2.5/5), Axiom M22ti (2/5), Polk LSi9 (3/5), LSi7 (2.9/5)
    Source: Squeezebox 3 -> PS Audio Digital Link III -> Cary 306/200 CDP -> Cary 306 SACD -> EMM LABS DAC2X/TSDX
    Preamplification: Rotel RC1070 -> Rogue Perseus -> Cary SLP98 -> Cary SLP98F1 -> Cary SLP05 (sold and then repurchased)
    Amplification: HK AVR330 -> Rotel RB1070 -> Rotel RB1090 -> Plinius SA102 -> Cary 211FE -> Classe M600 -> Boulder 2060
    Subwoofer: Infinity Entra2 sub -> SVS 25-31PC+ sub
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 28,034
    Joey_V wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    Joey_V wrote: »
    It’s a few things.

    People don’t find the value in paying a premium for wire.

    People don’t bother to try premium wire.

    People aren’t open to challenging their preconceived notions.

    LOL...YA know, it wasn't long ago you were one of those people. Glad you finally saw the light. :)

    I know... but I’m happy I saw the light. I was really really REALLY anti-cables.

    Now I caress my AQ Wels.

    I would too if I could afford them. Though now that you said that, should you ever offer them up for sale, please state you totally disinfected them. ;)
    ERA D-5
    B&K 1403
    Cary Xciter dac
    Joule LA-100
    SVS SB-2000 SUB
    Sony 4k bdp
    Sony 4k 55 850c
    FX 500 surround
    Acoustic zen Satori SC's
    Pioneer elite vsx21
    Sonos-Cullen mod.
    Audio Metallurgy GA-0 digital
    PS Audio Quintet
    Analysis Plus crystal ovals
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2's IC
    Wireworld eclipse 7 Ic's
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 16,770
    Joey_V wrote: »

    Now I caress my AQ Wels.

    I don’t care what you call it. This is a family friendly forum, and it’s best to keep such activity private. :D
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with PS Audio NuWave Phono converter, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Stradivari v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X1 two channel preamplifier Signed by Poppa himself, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-65, Oppo UDP-205 Blu-ray , Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds

  • tonyp063tonyp063 Posts: 248
    I think what bothers me the most is the unwillingness of some to even open their minds to the fact that their preconceived notions might just be incorrect.
    But then, I generally abhor willful ignorance.

    This doesn't just apply to cables, but that's flame-war fuel for a different forum.

    Will I be able to afford AQ Wels? Never. But that doesn't prevent me from *learning* about them; why some like them; what they may offer, etc.

    That way, when I have a purchase decision to make I can have some intelligent questions to ask and an understanding of the basic concepts around what better cables may, or may not offer *me*.
    Then I can effectively narrow purchase decisions based upon my known tastes & garnered knowledge.

    "A closed mind has no room for an original thought"

    Indeed, that brush can broadly paint most audio choices.

  • ClipdatClipdat Posts: 910
    The MIT shotgun speaker and IC cable demo that was on the forum several years ago was pretty eye opening regarding what higher end cables can bring to the table.
    NAD C 316BEE, Marantz cd6004, Rotel RCD-1072, Sony SCD-CE595, Polk Audio LSiM 703
  • Toolfan66Toolfan66 Posts: 13,474
    It would be nice to have a thread where we could just talk cables/wire without the drama.
    Even if the whole world knows
    I don't give a damn about what they think
    I don't have to stand up to your gun
    I don't have to sit down when you say
    Tell me I'm overboard
    The truth is you just want to see me sink
    If there's any room left on that ship
    You don't have to save any room for me
    Cause I've got my own boat (even when it rains)
    I'm doing my own thing (even when it rains)
    And I will stay afloat - even when it rains
    Cause I've got my own boat
    Row, row your boat
    Row, row your boat
    Row your boat
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 28,034
    Clipdat wrote: »
    The MIT shotgun speaker and IC cable demo that was on the forum several years ago was pretty eye opening regarding what higher end cables can bring to the table.

    Good point, and we had to drag people to participate in it. Many had no interest, so it became a matter of....those that don't know, don't know.

    We like to say hearing is believing, or not believing, depending. Point is and always was....ya have to try things for yourself before passing judgements.
    ERA D-5
    B&K 1403
    Cary Xciter dac
    Joule LA-100
    SVS SB-2000 SUB
    Sony 4k bdp
    Sony 4k 55 850c
    FX 500 surround
    Acoustic zen Satori SC's
    Pioneer elite vsx21
    Sonos-Cullen mod.
    Audio Metallurgy GA-0 digital
    PS Audio Quintet
    Analysis Plus crystal ovals
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2's IC
    Wireworld eclipse 7 Ic's
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,617
    edited January 3
    I have trouble with pseudo-science (more to the point, pseudo-physics). Some nugget of actual physics will be used as a jumping off point for -- imaginative nonsense.

    Spoiler alert: the internet is full of such things! (gasp?!) There's like perpetual
    motion machines
    and free energy and other such doo-doo out there.

    Now, I am not saying that the geometry, materials of construction, etc. cannot matter when it comes to cabling. They certainly can. Heck, they do. I am also not saying that different cables cannot alter the sound of a hifi system. They can (and do).

    but...

    It's when just some of the crazy theory that sounds technical and scientific (but is actually just drivel) gets associated with some of the designs -- presumably in the service of marketing. That gets my goat. :#

    To me, the perversion of genuine scientific principles and knowledge in service of pseudo-science is a big issue nowadays... but that's another matter entirely. :|


    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

  • steveinazsteveinaz Posts: 17,898
    Anyone with some knowledge of electronics should understand that wire is a component, just like a resistor, inductor, transistor, etc; and is subject to having an effect on the signal. The question is, how significant?
    Source: Oppo BDP-103/USB HDD | Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2L | Power Amp: Parasound HCA-1500A | Speakers: PSB Imagine T2 | Cables: Kimber Hero/8TC; DH Labs D-75 | AC Power: Panamax M5300-PM
  • A few years ago I was on the fence, not any more!!
    Yamaha RXA1030, Yamaha CD
    Polk SDA2btl highly modded
    PolkM7b peerless
    Polk CS350 LS x2
    Polk m5jr
    Kimber 8TC
    Sony 55" Bravia
    Wish list Polk SRS 2 or 2.3 TL, SVS sub, Parasound amp

  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 1,654
    edited January 3
    I think the mods should start such a thread, or sticky it, with warnings that it's for open, intelligent discussion and blatant trolling will get you shunned , or, suspended for x amount of time. I typically avoid such discussions due to the inevitable angry troll that wants to opine after trying 2 entry level cables/wires and noticing no difference on his/her entry level theater-in-a-box system. Would love a place to discuss what and how a product affects my system, as well as what others have found.

    I recently was in need of a set of interconnects after getting back in to vinyl. Wasn't sure if I wanted to pour a ton of money in to it (TOO LATE!) so I was looking for a pre-owned set for reasonable coin. I picked up a set of Silnote Morpheus and was surprised at what I found. They performed equally as well as the Wireworld Silver Eclipse. Price on the secondary market when you can find them, is very accessible.
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
    Dual SVS SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

  • headrottheadrott Posts: 5,121
    Without having read the whole thread, I will respond with one word (with an explanation):

    Jealousy.

    Jealousy that others can spend money on cables that some may not be able to afford. Jealousy that others can hear what some can not. Jealousy that because of the the two reasons, people actually do spend more on higher end cables for the above two reasons.

    That's my take on it.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
  • DSkipDSkip Posts: 13,748
    I find in many areas of this hobby that the issues lie in theory vs reality. While something should work like X, the truth is there is more we don't fully understand that actually make it work like Y. Eventually we will understand these things at a deeper level but until then, it takes an open mind to experiment. It also takes an open mind to realize that if you can't hear a difference, it could simply be the system isn't revealing it to you. It doesn't mean you have a poor system, just that the new component isn't fully realized for whatever reason.

    I have faithfully endorsed and will continue to endorse Wireworld because they aren't system dependent. They use scientific approaches paired with scopes to build a better cable. Their cables sound good in every system I've tried thus far. A specific cable from them in general might not be the best fit for your system overall, but it's going to get you close.
    audiothesis.com/

    Speakers: Harbeth: P3ESR, 30.2, SHL5+; Usher: CP-6311, Be-10, T-515; Rosso Fiorentino: Elba, Fiesole, Volterra; Polk: T50, Signature S60, S55, S35, S30, S20, S15, RTA 15tl, Sonner Audio Allegro Unum
    Preamps: Shuguang S200MK, Dayens Ampino, Parasound P5
    Amps: Shuguang S845MK, Dayens Ampino Monoblocks, Parasound A23
    Integrateds: Dayens Ampino, Triode Corporation TRV-88SER, MastersounD: Dueventi, Compact 845, Evolution 845; North Star Design Blue Diamond
    Sources: AURALiC Aries, AURALiC Altair, Denon HEOS Link, North Star Design: Magnifico, Supremo, Incanto, Intenso, Venti
    Cabling: Wireworld
    TV: Sony XBR-75X940C
  • lightman1lightman1 Posts: 8,817
    Skip......you make trolling these threads a task for me.
    DSkip wrote: »
    I find in many areas of this hobby that the issues lie in theory vs reality. While something should work like X, the truth is there is more we don't fully understand that actually make it work like Y. Eventually we will understand these things at a deeper level but until then, it takes an open mind to experiment. It also takes an open mind to realize that if you can't hear a difference, it could simply be the system isn't revealing it to you. It doesn't mean you have a poor system, just that the new component isn't fully realized for whatever reason.

    I have faithfully endorsed and will continue to endorse Wireworld because they aren't system dependent. They use scientific approaches paired with scopes to build a better cable. Their cables sound good in every system I've tried thus far. A specific cable from them in general might not be the best fit for your system overall, but it's going to get you close.

  • machonemachone Posts: 856
    I recently upgraded all of the power cords in the digital half of my system but did not bring it up because there seems to be either very little interest or controversy.
    Mojo Audio Joule v5>>Quantum Byte w/JRiver 21 and Fidelizer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Marantz SA 8005>> Equinox 7>>
    Hafler DH-110 Preamp + (Musical Concepts LXII Elite Mod) >>Equinox 7>>
    Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts PA-6 Elite Mod) >>Belden 5000 10 ga cables>>
    SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modified)...SDA-1A (Fully Modified with Dimensional Tweeter Delete)
    1KVA Dreadnought
    Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
    Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570

    Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
    1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video

    "All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER"
  • afterburntafterburnt Posts: 3,454
    I like cables, whatever would I do without them? Now that I am getting back to normal I can evaluate my latest cable purchases. My listening chair has been cold for a while, but then I am still stuck in this bad room for 28 months and 27 days.
    Parlor: Yamaha RX-A2030*Parasound Halo P5*Parasound Halo A-31*Parasound 2250v2*Emotiva XPA-200 Gen1*LSiM707 Fronts*LSiM706c Center*LSiM702f/x Surrounds*Monitor70 Series II Rears*Monitor40 Series II Presence*SVS PB2000 Sub X2*OPPO BDP-103D*Sony PS3*Samsung-55" LED 1080p Smart 3D HDTV UN55H7150AFXZA*TEAC TN-300*Wireworld Solstice cables*Blue Jeans Cable LC-1's IC's*BJC Silver-Plated IC's* Bens Silver IC's

    Dungeon: Auralic Aries Mini*Dayens Ampino Preamp*Dayens Ampino Monoblocks*Usher N-6361*Wireworld Oasis cables*Wireworld Oasis IC's*IFI nano IDSD* Cambridge CXU*

    Panamax MR5100*Panamax M8-AV-PRO*Furman PST-2+6

    Headgear: Sennheiser HD 558*Audio-Technica ATH-M40x*Sennheiser HD 598 Cs*Audio-Technica ATH-MSR7*Philips SHP9500S* Sennheiser 6xx

    Hello Kitty boombox

    Spares: Yamaha RX-A1040*Emotiva XPA-1L Gen2 X2*Emotiva XPA-3 Gen2*CSiA6 Center*Monitor40 Series II*SVS PB1000 Sub*Sony BDPS6500 Blu-ray player*POS 37" LCD*Douglas Connection Furez 12 AWG 2 Conductor*Blue Jeans Cable LC-1's IC's*Samsung BD-H5900 3D Blu-Ray*


    Self Control is over rated.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,617
    I was listening to used, 70-ish year-old 2A3s tonight... and my, oh, my did they sound fine.
    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 9,521
    I think my next audio purchase will be the new TOTL Shunyata Sigma speaker cables. Then we can some cable talk. All I can say now is that better cables have made a tremendous improvement in my system. When you find something that works then stick with it.
    Bud

    Lumin S1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Z Anaconda XLR analog ICs, Z Anaconda speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • lightman1lightman1 Posts: 8,817
    Oi! Victor fargin nailed it...m
  • gudnoyezgudnoyez Posts: 5,812
    edited January 3
    Im using MIT's, Wireworld. Audioquests, and Signal Cables, all with good results. Do not knock it till you try it.
    Home Theater
    Parasound Halo A 31 OnkyoTX-NR838 Sony XBR55X850B 55" 4K RtiA9 Fronts CsiA6 Center RtiA3 Rears FxiA6 Side Surrounds Dual Psw 111's Oppo 105D Signal Ultra Speaker Cables & IC's Signal Magic Power Cable Technics SL Q300 Panamax MR4300 Audioquest Chocolate HDMI Cables Audioquest Forest USB Cable

    2 Channel
    Adcom 555II Vincent SA-T1 Marantz SA 15S2 Denon DR-M11 Clearaudio Bluemotion SDA 2.3tl's (Z) edition MIT Terminator II Speaker Cables & IC's Adcom 545II Adcom Gtp-450 Marantz CD5004 Technics M245X SDA 2B's, SDA CRS+

    Stuff for the Head
    JD LABS C5 Headphone Amplifier, Sennheiser HD 598, Polk Audio Buckle, Polk Audio Hinge, Velodyne vPulse, Bose IE2, Sennheiser CX 200 Street II, Sennheiser MX 365

    Shower & Off the beaten path Rigs
    Polk Audio Boom Swimmer, Polk Audio Urchin B)
  • kharp1kharp1 Posts: 1,654
    As steveinaz pointed out, cables are another component in the system. Different wire, different metals, different insulators will all do something unique to the sound. Some will have more pronounced effects in different systems as they will react differently to the components upstream. It's reasonable to assume that there may be little gain recognized by placing a higher priced (read better quality materials and build) in a lower end system that is less revealing to begin with. I'm not trying to start a class war, lol, just an observation that there are money issues when it comes to extracting as much info as possible from your system. A $500 Dueland capacitor sounds different than a $5 capacitor.
    Main System:
    Joule-Electra LA 100 MKIII
    Pass Labs Aleph 30, McCormack DNA-125, Parasound A21
    Marantz SA-14S1
    Usher CP-6311/Tyler Acoustics Taylo Reference Monitor, LSA-1
    Dual SVS SB2000
    Wireworld Equinox 7 bi-wire, Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 IC

    Secondary Rig:
    Parasound P5, Audio Electronics by Cary Constellation
    Marsh a200s, Audio Elecrtonics by Cary Hercules
    Pioneer Elite DV-45a, Denon DVD-2910
    Klipsch Epic CF-1, Vandersteen 3CE sig
    Analysus Plus Oval

  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 7,146
    I prefer synthetic rope cable to steel cable for use in winches...


    :smiley:
    Living room: Samsung UN55KU7000 4K UHD HDR 55 inch TV, Marantz CD6004, Pro-Ject Debut Carbon, Parasound zPhono, Mac Mini, Oppo BDP-93, XBox One S 2Tb, Kenwood DPX792BH car deck for radio purposes, Marantz SR5010 AVR, Parasound HCA-1200II, Front SDA 2 modded with Larrys Rings and RD0-194-1 tweeters, Rear Onkyo SKF-4800 Towers, Center CSiA6, BOOM Tannoy TS2.12 Sub, Audioquest Evergreen interconnects just about everywhere except from AVR to amp, MIT Terminator 4, MIT AVT3 speaker cables with extra terminals covered up Monitor 5 Jr+ in the wings for a center channel.
«13456
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