2000 Year speaker capacitor replacement?

2

Comments

  • in mine, the crossover board is screwed to the backside of the binding post assembly.
    Lots of room behind if I need to stack a couple of caps but I'd sure love to see the pics. Also, would like to know your opinion if the change was minor or drastic. if you are happy etc. Can't find a single thread online where this was actually done to this speaker. Cheers.
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,113
    I want to say the overall sound quality had improved, not by a huge margin though.

    The midrange seems slightly tighter, the tweeter may be padded down just ever so slightly but might not be a bad thing.

    The bass appears to be tighter and more accurate, they will play loud and sound cleaner at higher volumes. I want to say there appears to be a slight dip in the higher frequencies, just enough to make you wonder where the last bit of sparkle went...but again, might not be a bad thing.

    I haven't gave them alot of critical listening time recently, but I want to say the clarity caps I used may not be as revealing as the sonicaps...not sure, haven't done a A-B comparison.

    I flipped the boards to aid in soldering.

    brp99kkoh0sw.jpg

    ssjc9xhhlx7s.jpg

  • StimpyWanStimpyWan Registered User Posts: 49
    gmcman wrote: »
    I want to say the overall sound quality had improved, not by a huge margin though.

    The midrange seems slightly tighter, the tweeter may be padded down just ever so slightly but might not be a bad thing.

    The bass appears to be tighter and more accurate, they will play loud and sound cleaner at higher volumes. I want to say there appears to be a slight dip in the higher frequencies, just enough to make you wonder where the last bit of sparkle went...but again, might not be a bad thing.

    I just recapped a set of speakers, and feel exactly as you do. My speakers are Acoustic Research AR58S's. A 3 way, using dome mids and tweeters, and 12" woofers.

    With the recap, I used a CSA on the tweeters, and an ESA on the mids. After about 75 hours of burn in, I hear a lot lower noise floor, allowing low level detail to be easily heard. Also, the dispersion has increased, to where the speakers throw a nice sound-stage. But, there seems to be an upper mid roll off, and a lack of air and sparkle in the treble. Dynamics are a bit lessened as well. I hope the caps continue to improve with increased burn in, as I like most of what I'm hearing so far. I just want the dynamics and sparkle back.

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,973
    You'll get used to what music is supposed to sound like.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • StimpyWanStimpyWan Registered User Posts: 49
    F1nut wrote: »
    You'll get used to what music is supposed to sound like.

    While I can't speak for gmcman, I know my AR's didn't sound muted and rolled-off, in the upper mids, prior to the recap. So, as stated, I hope additional burn in helps the situation?

    As "to what music is supposed to sound like", I have no problem there. I worked in audio mastering, at 2 different CD replication plants, for 19 years. To do your job, and to do a good job, you had to learn how to listen, and what to listen for. Plus, using Meyer Sound HD-1 monitors, in our studio's, didn't hurt. Those speakers taught you how helpful a flat frequency response really was. Slight response peaks or dips were immediately audible.

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,973
    So you're used to cripsy.....got it.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • StimpyWanStimpyWan Registered User Posts: 49
    F1nut wrote: »
    So you're used to cripsy.....got it.

    Nope. "Crispy" has nothing to do with it.
  • StimpyWanStimpyWan Registered User Posts: 49
    edited January 10
    Hey, even Tony Gee agrees with me. The ClarityCap ESA review.

    "Sound:

    Similar in overall character to the Clarity Cap SA but with more clarity and therefore a fraction more spatial. Like the SA they could still do with a bit more transparency but with a small capacitor placed parallel to the ESA this can be improved. The ESA also has a slightly warmish presentation and also benefits from making a total value using about 90% Clarity Cap ESA and about 10% Mundorf Supreme. This opens up the top end just nicely without altering anything else. Good overall qualities and an upgrade from the standard Clarity Cap SA."


    The ClarityCap SA review.

    "Sound: The Clarity Cap range has an overall similarity in tonal balance, going up the range you gain a bit in clarity and spatiality. I find the SA to be neutral with a slightly warmish presentation but also a bit closed-in. Compared to the Clarity Cap PX definition and separation are better, the stereo-image is also little larger. I did find the top end to be slightly rolled-off, not that they lacked detailed but on some recordings I wanted a fraction more transparency - but all in all still very nice. On the downside the "S" and "T" in vocals can be a bit plasticy, this is probably due to the lack in transparany in the top octave, making the octaves below sound a little masked. Making a capacitor using about 90% Clarity Cap SA and about 10% Mundorf Supreme works very well, this tends to open up the top end just nicely without altering anything else."


    These ESA and SA comments exactly mirror what I am hearing.
    Post edited by StimpyWan on
  • Damn. the more I read this thread, the more I feel I should just leave my speakers as they are. lol
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,973
    I respect Tony Gee and appreciate his efforts, but I also disgree with his love of bypass caps, which leads me to believe he likes what I call a crispy top end otherwise known as hyper detail. It's not how live music sounds.

    I don't find Clarity ESA's to be rolled off at all.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • StimpyWanStimpyWan Registered User Posts: 49
    Thanks. Any experience on how long 'complete' break in might take? I truly don't want to rush to judgment, and replace the ClarityCaps. But, for whatever reason, they are still sounding veiled in my system. Though, as noted, only in the upper mids and high end. Low level detail is awesome, which puzzles me, as to why the high end isn't there yet?
  • I don't know squat about speaker building but I would suspect that if good caps take 100 hours before they are sounding good, the higher end manufacturers must break them in prior to installation. Like on some type of "capacitor break in machine" lol
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,973
    StimpyWan wrote: »
    Thanks. Any experience on how long 'complete' break in might take? I truly don't want to rush to judgment, and replace the ClarityCaps. But, for whatever reason, they are still sounding veiled in my system. Though, as noted, only in the upper mids and high end. Low level detail is awesome, which puzzles me, as to why the high end isn't there yet?

    Are you sure you got all the crossover components in their proper place?

    If so, they may simply not be your cup of tea. Try some Vcaps.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • StimpyWanStimpyWan Registered User Posts: 49
    F1nut wrote: »
    StimpyWan wrote: »
    Thanks. Any experience on how long 'complete' break in might take? I truly don't want to rush to judgment, and replace the ClarityCaps. But, for whatever reason, they are still sounding veiled in my system. Though, as noted, only in the upper mids and high end. Low level detail is awesome, which puzzles me, as to why the high end isn't there yet?

    Are you sure you got all the crossover components in their proper place?

    If so, they may simply not be your cup of tea. Try some Vcaps.

    I did one speaker at a time, with before and after pictures, to double check my work. So, yes, everything is wired correctly. I'll just keep letting them cook and see what happens!

    Thanks again to all for the help.

    One other thought. I have a set of AR91 crossovers. They're exactly the same as the AR58S crossovers, with the addition of level switches. I might do some comparisons with those, to see if I can figure out a cure.

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,973
    I can't recall anyone else stating they found the top end veiled as you have, so I'm inclined to think they are not a good match for your speakers and your ears. That is, I don't think burn in is going to get you what you want. Usually, burn in results in a smoothing out of the top end.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • DavidRDavidR Posts: 15
    Capacitor 'burn in' : Audio myth or fact ? Below is an email from Michael Janzten on the subject.

    "Hello Davis.

    Thank you for your mail.

    I will be happy to give you our opinions/views on audio related subjects.

    Please do note that I cannot decide if something is myth or fact, but only tell you what we think, based on our years of experience.

    We believe that if a capacitor is made with high quality materials and with the proper winding method and overall care with build quality, it will sound the same from day one and until it no longer performs as it should.

    For drivers, it is a different story as there are moving parts like membranes, voice coils etc. Like with a new car it needs to be driven for a while to get the full potential from the engine, gearbox and other main components, much the same with speaker drivers.

    The mind is a very powerful thing and if you tell yourself that a capacitor will sound better or different after i.e. 100 hours of play, then I am sure that it will sound different.

    I think listening to speakers is like smelling perfumes in a perfume store or going to a wine tasting.

    At some point, you will need to clean your pallet, because you will have sensory overload and everything will taste, smell or sound the same or you will have convinced yourself that things are different, because your senses are too saturated to give you an honest answer.

    I think that if you buy some nice and expensive capacitors, you should give them a listen. Then go do something else for a good long time and clear your senses, then go listen again with a fresh mind.

    There are a lot of clams, superstition and “magic” in the audio industry and we would like to think that we have a pragmatic “Scandinavian” approach to making audio related products.

    We want our products to have a purpose and to be of high quality.

    Yes, we do want our customers to have many choices and to offer new and exciting products, but we never launch a product until we are sure that it serves a technical purpose and that it has the quality and sound that is fitting for a Jantzen Audio product.

    If someone can show me proof that a human ear can detect any difference for one of our Superior Z-Caps @ 1 hour of play and @ 100 hours of play, I will gladly change our view on the subject.

    At Jantzen Audio we only care about what makes music sound better/different to the human ear. We do not waste our time with things that are only improvements or changes on a theoretical level. It would be like saying that we had created a dish using a very exotic spice at 5000$ per ounce, but no human can taste the difference if we add to in the dish or not. Would you a restaurant the extra 5000$ for such a dish? J

    I hope you can use my thoughts on the subject.

    I wish you a nice day and a merry Christmas.

    Michael"
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,973
    So DavidR, what is your personal experience with capacitor burn in and with which ones?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • DavidRDavidR Posts: 15
    It's a myth.
  • StimpyWanStimpyWan Registered User Posts: 49
    Well, I guess my ears believe in Myths, 'Cause things, they are a change'n. :)
  • StimpyWanStimpyWan Registered User Posts: 49
    Damn. the more I read this thread, the more I feel I should just leave my speakers as they are. lol

    Smart man. But, experimentation and exploration are part of the fun. Though, it does make you crazy. It makes me wish that all my crossovers were external, and that I could switch between multiple same value capacitors, and pick the one that suits me best. Not too much to ask?

  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,973
    DavidR wrote: »
    It's a myth.

    So, your personal experience is a myth and you don't have a leg to stand on. Thanks for clearing that up.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • DavidRDavidR Posts: 15
    What exactly do you think changes inside the capacitor to create your 'burn in'. Let's see if you have a leg to stand on.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,973
    I'm not playing that game. You're the one that doesn't believe they burn in without any personal experience and therefore are the one without a leg to stand on.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • DavidRDavidR Posts: 15
    That's what I thought I'd get. I've had conversations with many speaker designers, electrical engineers and a manufacturer of high-end capacitors. None of them believe in it and say that your ears/brain 'burn in'. I've recapped dozens of speakers and some amps. No changes in the electronics happen.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 39,973
    Oh, so now you have experience......LOL

    The trouble with that is you state no changes happened. Do you really expect anyone to believe you swapped out 30 year old electrolytics for new electrolytics and nothing changed? How do I know you only used new electrolytics......that should be obvious.

    Of course, I can counter with my talking to speaker designers, engineers and one manufacturer of high-end capacitors that know they burn in.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • StimpyWanStimpyWan Registered User Posts: 49
    No offense meant to anyone, but it doesn't matter to me how other people feel, and what other people believe in, regarding gear or speaker upgrades and burn in, break in, or whatever you want to call it. It's a myth I believe in, and no one else has to drink my cool-aid. And as for engineers, I know many, and work with them daily, and most have no common sense. Most that I work with use headphones. They don't have speakers that need upgrading. Beck, most of my speakers are older than they are.

    I'm an experienced listener, with years of audio work under my belt. I trust my ears, and what I'm hearing. I don't feel I need to provide evidence for what I'm hearing either. So, with that said, I hear changes as my speakers "break in". Very audible, and easy to detect changes. As such, to me anyway, it is a real and valid process. If the speakers break in for the better, I'll be ecstatic. If not, I'll move on to another brand of capacitors. No big deal to me. And once I find a set of parts that make me happy, I'm finished. It's that simple. I also like to relay my experiences to others, in the hope that it's educational and helpful? That includes discussing the brands involved, and the after effects. If that offends anyone, I'm not really concerned. You can't please everyone. But I try and please as many as I can.
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 10,217
    DavidR wrote: »
    That's what I thought I'd get. I've had conversations with many speaker designers, electrical engineers and a manufacturer of high-end capacitors. None of them believe in it and say that your ears/brain 'burn in'. I've recapped dozens of speakers and some amps. No changes in the electronics happen.

    So capacitors are capacitors are capacitors? No difference in sound between any of them from any company at any price? So then why does jantzen have several price points and market them as better going up their line or price point.....??
    So they are admitting their cheapest is no better that their most expensive?

    Tell you what just save your money buy all Solen's and be done.

    There is a difference between brands and price points and yes I've recapped many and heard differences as they break in.
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,113
    edited January 13
    DavidR wrote: »
    What exactly do you think changes inside the capacitor to create your 'burn in'. Let's see if you have a leg to stand on.
    DavidR wrote: »
    That's what I thought I'd get. I've had conversations with many speaker designers, electrical engineers and a manufacturer of high-end capacitors. None of them believe in it and say that your ears/brain 'burn in'. I've recapped dozens of speakers and some amps. No changes in the electronics happen.

    I guess that if you personally don't feel there's any change, then that's your opinion.

    However based on your posts in this thread, I found this quite ironic...taken from the Jantzen website.

    Interesting what one "Audio Expert" stated about the "mythical burn in".

    f13i4tt1rkfb.jpg



  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 2,796
    I don't have much to offer other than that guy spelled both parts of Diana Krall's name wrong.
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 1,113
    When I recapped my 2B's, at one point they were almost unlistenable. They quickly became grainy, muddy midrange...that's when I put them in another room facing each other for almost 2 weeks.

    After that they transformed into a very smooth, detailed speaker...quite the difference.

2
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