You all is smart ;-) a wheel/tire/TPMS question, if I might?

mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,060
edited November 11 in The Clubhouse
Last year I decided that rather than have the tires changed twice a year (spring/fall) from "all season" to real winter tires using the same shabby looking steel wheels, I decided to leave those for the winter tires and bought an inexpensive set of aftermarket wheels (and new "all season" tires, which I needed) for my decidedly nondescript daily driver (2006 Toyota RAV4 "base" -- and base it is...).

34907404730_80a636d286_h.jpgDSC_8455 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

The car has tire pressure sensors (yay) in all five wheels (spare, too -- double-yay), so the most cost-effective way to change wheels was to have a set of (aftermarket) TPMS sensors installed in the new wheels.

All has been well with them, but we're fast approaching time to install the winter tires.
The winter tires/original wheels still have the original TPMS sensors in 'em.

My question is a simple one. If one changes the wheels, will the "old" (original) TPMS sensors and the car find each other, or is there some communication incantation required?

The corollary question: given that the winter tires have been stored "off the car" since late spring, have the poor sensors in the original wheels been crying out, in vain, looking for the car -- pinging and "burning out their fuses out here alone" (to paraphrase Bowie)? You know, like a cell phone that cannot find a cell and runs down its battery pining for one? :)

I don't actually know how the sensors work -- are they powered, or are they some sort of passive RFID kind of gizmo?

Oy, so many questions! Sorry!

Any help is greatly appreciated; thanks!

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Comments

  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 714
    Ok the handshake should be seamless given the winter tires are OEM. If not, it's a simple procedure to sync them with a scan tool that most Pepboys have. As for the sensors, they are activated by rotation of the tires, usually above 20 mph for 10-15 sec. They also time out and go dormant when not spinning.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,060
    oh (re: the dormancy thing) --

    fhgc0igtqi4p.png

    Thanks!

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  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 6,866
    Ok I do this for a living and know the Toyota thing...yeah the set will have to be programmed to the vehicle once again including the spare...every spring and fall. My shop has a few TPMS programming tools that we use to tell vehicles to talk to sensors. Only brand of vehicles that is capable of automatically relearning new sensors or a set of winter wheels with sensors is Chrysler stuff.
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,060
    okey-dokey; so much for my hope that I could render this a DIY exercise :/

    I am not crazy about this vehicle...
    (bought it used, a coupla years back from a family friend who was giving up driving due to age. Older vehicle but low mileage)
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  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 6,866
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    okey-dokey; so much for my hope that I could render this a DIY exercise :/

    I am not crazy about this vehicle...
    (bought it used, a coupla years back from a family friend who was giving up driving due to age. Older vehicle but low mileage)

    Yeah unfortunately the US government made TPMS systems manditory in vehicles since '08...guess people couldn't tell if they had a flat or not...geez. This is why both my vehicles are old...one's a '98 and the other is a '91 lol.
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  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 714
    You could just put a piece of electrical tape over the light .... Or flat out ignore it and treat it like you would 15 years ago...

    @nbrowser I've always just used the scan tool to program the new sensors at work, never paid attention to who would and wouldn't auto-hand shake... Untill the customer supplied sensor was for the wrong generation....
  • EmlynEmlyn Posts: 1,884
    From Tirerack regarding valve stem type monitoring systems....

    https://blog.tirerack.com/blog/chads-742-on-performance-tires-and-wheels/tire-pressure-monitoring-sensors-for-toyota-infiniti-lexus-more-to-know

    Although the vehicle would drive perfectly fine with a DIY swap, in States like Virginia that mandate annual safety inspections having the TPMS light on would be a fail.

    I do like the passive systems used by Audi or others that work on wheel speed variations and do not have valve stem pressure sensors. They do not display actual tire pressures though so it is possible to be driving around on four under inflated tires when winter hits and temperatures drop. Time to check the pressures manually.

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  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 6,866
    FestYboy wrote: »
    You could just put a piece of electrical tape over the light .... Or flat out ignore it and treat it like you would 15 years ago...

    @nbrowser I've always just used the scan tool to program the new sensors at work, never paid attention to who would and wouldn't auto-hand shake... Untill the customer supplied sensor was for the wrong generation....

    Oddly, the company I work for is a franchised store of a much larger company. Policy says...vehicles do NOT leave with the light on...that comes from head office. Oddly, on some GM vehicles...if the TPMS system is sensing a fault...the vehicle is speed limited...we found that out on a police level Chevy Suburban!
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  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 714
    edited November 11
    Way too much big brother right there... I understand the reasoning behind it but still...

    So If a customer comes in with the light on and needs new rubber but the fault is in the BCM, is the customer not allowed to have their car back after service? Having the light on or off seems trivial if all other aspects are good and correct.
  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 6,866
    FestYboy wrote: »
    Way too much big brother right there... I understand the reasoning behind it but still...

    So I'm a customer comes in with the light on and needs new rubber but the fault is in the BCM, is the customer not allowed to have their car back after service? Having the light on or off seems trivial if all other aspects are good and correct.

    50% of the time, low tire pressure so fix the tire or correct pressures all around, 49.9%, dead sensor, replace the sensor. It's the last .1 that has to be fixed. That falls into discretionary areas...cause it could mean something as insane as a ABS module as most sensors communicate with the vehicle via the ABS wiring used as an antenna! Yes I am a licensed red seal Canada wide mechanic...I know things most home gamers would balk at....trust me lol.
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  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 714
    My issue is the 25% pressure loss before light activation BS... It's too much, especially when the factory pressure on the plackard is low to begin with. 10% is a better number imo.

    ASE certified tech down here... And maybe it's just me, but it seems the system cross communication in newer cars is creating more areas of opportunity for attention loss behind the wheel, and yet somehow the NHSB is astounded that attention related incidence are on the rise... "I never check anything, I just get in and go..." Scary.
  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 6,866
    FestYboy wrote: »
    My issue is the 25% pressure loss before light activation BS... It's too much, especially when the factory pressure on the plackard is low to begin with. 10% is a better number imo.

    ASE certified tech down here... And maybe it's just me, but it seems the system cross communication in newer cars is creating more areas of opportunity for attention loss behind the wheel, and yet somehow the NHSB is astounded that attention related incidence are on the rise... "I never check anything, I just get in and go..." Scary.

    I agree, vehicles of today have become so easy to operate however the electronics overload gets me. Now we get complaints of distracted driving yet they are putting in touchscreens of large sizes...gotta take your eyes off the road to operate your damn radio or HVAC...my old cars...sliders in the Buick, knobs in the F150 and buttons on the radios in each...same model Alpine deck in both go figure. This is why collisions are on the rise...meanwhile me in my 26 year old sedan...meh drop the hand on the dash, feel around and know what's what by feel...eyes STILL on the road.
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  • mikeyb128mikeyb128 Posts: 2,455
    nbrowser wrote: »
    FestYboy wrote: »
    You could just put a piece of electrical tape over the light .... Or flat out ignore it and treat it like you would 15 years ago...

    @nbrowser I've always just used the scan tool to program the new sensors at work, never paid attention to who would and wouldn't auto-hand shake... Untill the customer supplied sensor was for the wrong generation....

    Oddly, the company I work for is a franchised store of a much larger company. Policy says...vehicles do NOT leave with the light on...that comes from head office. Oddly, on some GM vehicles...if the TPMS system is sensing a fault...the vehicle is speed limited...we found that out on a police level Chevy Suburban!

    That is a ridiculous policy.
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  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,806
    nbrowser wrote: »
    FestYboy wrote: »
    My issue is the 25% pressure loss before light activation BS... It's too much, especially when the factory pressure on the plackard is low to begin with. 10% is a better number imo.

    ASE certified tech down here... And maybe it's just me, but it seems the system cross communication in newer cars is creating more areas of opportunity for attention loss behind the wheel, and yet somehow the NHSB is astounded that attention related incidence are on the rise... "I never check anything, I just get in and go..." Scary.

    I agree, vehicles of today have become so easy to operate however the electronics overload gets me. Now we get complaints of distracted driving yet they are putting in touchscreens of large sizes...gotta take your eyes off the road to operate your damn radio or HVAC...my old cars...sliders in the Buick, knobs in the F150 and buttons on the radios in each...same model Alpine deck in both go figure. This is why collisions are on the rise...meanwhile me in my 26 year old sedan...meh drop the hand on the dash, feel around and know what's what by feel...eyes STILL on the road.

    I actually just read an article on this the other day. The NTSB or whatever its called has taken notice and they seem to agree that it us getting as bad or worse than cell phones.
  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 714
    And in that same vein: headlamp intensity and aiming... Alot of the factory stuff is blinding oncoming traffic. It used to be that total output wasn't to exceed 150k lumens, some of the new German laser powered lights are over 400k!!! That's like staring at a welding arc.
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,806
    edited November 12
    FestYboy wrote: »
    And in that same vein: headlamp intensity and aiming... Alot of the factory stuff is blinding oncoming traffic. It used to be that total output wasn't to exceed 150k lumens, some of the new German laser powered lights are over 400k!!! That's like staring at a welding arc.

    Very true and they do not project as far as some older lamps. Some are easy to over drive. It is not so much the brightness it is more that the width of the beam of light is much less focused. Kind of like the first LED flashlights where they were super bright but you couldn't see past 10' out. My new LED maglight is 10x better than a few years ago. It'll reach out almost 100yrd's and still be a very focused beam of light.
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 38,136
    FestYboy wrote: »
    And in that same vein: headlamp intensity and aiming... Alot of the factory stuff is blinding oncoming traffic. It used to be that total output wasn't to exceed 150k lumens, some of the new German laser powered lights are over 400k!!! That's like staring at a welding arc.

    I agree, it's completely out of control and extremely dangerous.
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  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 6,866
    FestYboy wrote: »
    And in that same vein: headlamp intensity and aiming... Alot of the factory stuff is blinding oncoming traffic. It used to be that total output wasn't to exceed 150k lumens, some of the new German laser powered lights are over 400k!!! That's like staring at a welding arc.

    Yep, and the idiots that drive them also have the fog lights on in city areas where up here at least...it's illegal to have them on so it's a double whammy blindness thing...almost pray I could have my own truck behind me when I'm driving my car...at least it's headlights won't blind someone...unless I accidentally leave them on bright.
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,060
    edited November 12
    1. I thought that the ABS on cars relied in some way on the data from the tire pressure monitors?

    1a. I did not realize that they were Federally-mandated.

    2. Our old (and unlamented) Ford Freestar minivan (don't start with me, OK? ;)) had the wheel-speed sensing (i.e., indirect) pressure monitoring. Twice it served to detect problems with the brakes, once was a seized caliper, and the other was a big stick which had gotten somehow wedged up by the rotor.

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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,604
    On my Lexus which is a fancy Toyota, you have a button under the dash to change the sensors between winter and summer tires. Both sets have to be programmed into the vehicle while that button is pressed to which set your programming. Also, these stupid tire sensors have a shelf life of 7 to 10 years .
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  • TNTsTunesTNTsTunes Posts: 439
    nbrowser wrote: »
    Ok I do this for a living and know the Toyota thing...yeah the set will have to be programmed to the vehicle once again including the spare...every spring and fall. My shop has a few TPMS programming tools that we use to tell vehicles to talk to sensors. Only brand of vehicles that is capable of automatically relearning new sensors or a set of winter wheels with sensors is Chrysler stuff.

    Kia auto learns and can remember 2 full sets of tires.

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  • FestYboyFestYboy Posts: 714
    Early systems (pre TPMS) relied only on the tone rings for any stability program. Nowadays, ABS, TPMS, PCM, BCM (gimbel, steering wheel angle sensor, and vehicle level sensors if equipped) all talk to each other for the stability program... This is where can-bus comes in.

    The federal mandate came as a knee jerk reaction to the Firestone debacle, whichever stemmed from Ford sending out their Exploders with tire pressure tags set at 27 psi... 5lbs lower than normal to start, so when customers didn't regularly check their pressure (which they never do), the pressure dropped low enough to cause excessive cycling of the sidewalls and therefore blowouts...

    Ford got away from the indirect detection system due to too many false alarms... The program was a bit too broad and most customers didn't want to understand what was happening if it wasn't the tire. And it wouldn't allow for different brands it sizes of tire without it tripping the light.
  • exalted512exalted512 Posts: 10,778
    Our GMC acadia was pretty easy. I don't know how many sets could be programmed, probably only 1...but programming was easy, but I had to find the procedure online.

    It was something along the lines of ignition on, doing some type of easy sequence and the horn would honk to let you know you're in programming mode. Then, you'd start with the driver front, let 5-10psi out until the car honked, moved to passenger front, passenger rear, then driver rear. Whole process took 5 minutes and no special tools required. Our car was about 6 years old when the tire sensors started going out. I bought new ones on amazon and installed everything myself.
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  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 6,866
    TNTsTunes wrote: »
    nbrowser wrote: »
    Ok I do this for a living and know the Toyota thing...yeah the set will have to be programmed to the vehicle once again including the spare...every spring and fall. My shop has a few TPMS programming tools that we use to tell vehicles to talk to sensors. Only brand of vehicles that is capable of automatically relearning new sensors or a set of winter wheels with sensors is Chrysler stuff.

    Kia auto learns and can remember 2 full sets of tires.

    Hyundai/Kia don't do TPMS up here in Canada nor does Subaru...not required. However most other auto makers that sell up here do include the systems as they feel it's not worth deleting from vehicles specifically for sale in Canada.
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  • WillowWillow Posts: 8,736
    nbrowser wrote: »
    Ok I do this for a living and know the Toyota thing...yeah the set will have to be programmed to the vehicle once again including the spare...
    TNTsTunes wrote: »
    nbrowser wrote: »
    Ok I do this for a living and know the Toyota thing...yeah the set will have to be programmed to the vehicle once again including the spare...every spring and fall. My shop has a few TPMS programming tools that we use to tell vehicles to talk to sensors. Only brand of vehicles that is capable of automatically relearning new sensors or a set of winter wheels with sensors is Chrysler stuff.

    Kia auto learns and can remember 2 full sets of tires.

    I've read and been told that Acura does this too. Guess I'll find out in the spring when I put my all seasons back on.
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  • EmlynEmlyn Posts: 1,884
    I got around to checking my tire pressure yesterday and found they were down about 7 psi as a result of time and temperature drops. I would have been able to see the actual pressures in each tire if the car had a TPMS with the active display like on my Jeep Grand Cherokee. No big deal as I usually keep the tires up around 40 psi and I can feel the difference in handling. The TPMS on the car would not give a warning as each tire pressure decreased at the same rate within plus or minus 1 psi.
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,060
    The ones with displays at least allow the driver to make a judgment as to whether a tire needs attention or not.

    Drivers' making their own judgments about the condition of their own cars is pretty much a thing of the past, though :neutral:
    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 6,866
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Drivers' making their own judgments about the condition of their own cars is pretty much a thing of the past, though :neutral:

    I agree...unless some of these people get a light or warning on their dashboards they think nothing is wrong with the vehicle. Case in point, timing belt service...there's an interval that needs to be followed...some people don't get it done and then new engine time! The way some vehicle owners are thinking lately scares me honestly.
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  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 8,330
    A few months ago, I had my tires rotated
    Got a leak at the ranch on my front left tire, dash indicator showed left rear

    Where is that info stored
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  • nbrowsernbrowser Posts: 6,866
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    A few months ago, I had my tires rotated
    Got a leak at the ranch on my front left tire, dash indicator showed left rear

    Where is that info stored

    Your vehicle will require a relearn to tell the computer where the sensors are according to their electronic IDs. Let me guess by the way...GM? If so Google up how to do a relearn without an activation tool, caution as you will need compressed air to top them back off as the tool-less method has you removing air to trigger the system.
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