Need a HT Pre

Airplay355

Hey guys,

I largely removed myself from audio for a long time while I went to college, grad school, bought cars, got married, bought a house etc. I'm back now and it feels great! For the longest time I've been getting by with a dodgy Marantz receiver, the display goes out intermittently which can be a PITA. It's an SR4001 from 2005 or something. Is that vintage at this point? The HDMI connections probably are.

Anyway, I'll keep the Marantz for a background 2ch system with the SDA2B's downstairs. For upstairs, I'm in the process of setting up an Lsi HT. I decided on an Outlaw 5000 as the amp - 5.1 is plenty for my room size. What I need now is a good HT pre. I don't see the benefit of picking up a receiver that I won't use the amps on so I'll first look for a pre and then I guess if you guys think a receiver is a better idea I could go with that. So far the best bang for $ model seems to be the Emotiva mc-700. I didn't go with an Emotiva amp because the outlaw looked like a higher quality build. There are murmurings of qc issues with the emotiva products so I'm not totally sold on those yet.

The matching outlaw pre seems a bit dated now so I didn't go for the combo deal. I'll mostly be using my laptop and apple TV (or similar if we pick up a roku) as a source. Need a Bluray player too but that's another thread.

tl;dr, what's a good pre to pickup for the beginning of an Lsi HT setup?

tonyb

Do you have a budget in mind ? HT pre's are a tad more expensive than their receiver counterparts. Top ones today are the Marantz and Yamaha's.

Airplay355

I guess not yet. Something around the price of the emotiva. So $500-$700 new or used. I don't want a marantz. Every marantz I've had has had a problem and getting them serviced takes forever because they aren't very service friendly I haven't looked at Yamaha anything yet but I'll check those out.

tonyb

Personally I know of no other HT pre/pro in that price range other than Emotiva. Maybe someone else does, but that budget is pretty low for current HT pre/pro's. Maybe Outlaw ?

Airplay355

Hmm maybe the emotiva is the way to go. The outlaw looks like it has an older hdmi standard. Do you know if that's the case? I don't need legacy video connections.

rooftop59

I would think hard about a Yamaha rx a series in your budget, 1000 or 2000 level if you get refurb or NOS. Really excellent sound for ht, and not shabby at all in music. Can definitely be found in your budget.

And with a 2000 level you would be fine with a 2 channel amp thinks...

I just don't think that emotiva will sound better than the yammie just because it's a pre vs an AVR...but I haven't compared.

tonyb

Airplay355 wrote: »

Hmm maybe the emotiva is the way to go. The outlaw looks like it has an older hdmi standard. Do you know if that's the case? I don't need legacy video connections.

I hear ya man, given your budget though maybe a receiver would be your best route at this point. A used upper end one with pre outs for your amp.

Speaking of the amp too, my feeling is it's a tad on the light side for power if your looking for a full LSI HT system. Not exactly the easiest speaker series to drive. You can always give it a shot though and see how it sounds to you.

Airplay355

Really? I figured 180wpc would be fine in the beginning. I suppose I could always get another one and bi-amp but I think it should be fine as a starting point. I thought about going with rti series speakers but I never liked the harshness of those tweeters. Anything with an S in it could cut glass.

tonyb

Airplay355 wrote: »

Really? I figured 180wpc would be fine in the beginning. I suppose I could always get another one and bi-amp but I think it should be fine as a starting point. I thought about going with rti series speakers but I never liked the harshness of those tweeters. Anything with an S in it could cut glass.

Common complaint with RTI's, but careful gear and cable matching can make them sound much better. I would suggest either the Signature series or LSIM series. Both have a nice non fatiguing higher frequency sound to them....much easier to drive too, easier load for your amp. Dare I say too, to my ears, the Signature series is more coherent top to bottom than the LSI's too. Food for thought anyway....

Airplay355

I've never heard the new signature line. The lsim is more than I want to spend. You feel the new signature line is better than the older lsi line? Right now I've just got an lsi center channel so it wouldn't be too late to switch.

WLDock

With the better AVRs and HT Pre going for $1500--$4000 finding a nice used one is the way to go.

afterburnt

Check out Newegg for Monitor II's. I was never unhappy with their HT performance. $740 for a 5.1 set.

https://www.newegg.com/Home-Audio-Speakers/SubCategory/ID-494?cm_sp=Cat_Home-Audio_1-_-VisNav-_-Audio-Speakers

rooftop59

Signature s60 5.0 set will go on sale again at adorama for $800. Can't beat that...

tonyb

Airplay355 wrote: »

I've never heard the new signature line. The lsim is more than I want to spend. You feel the new signature line is better than the older lsi line? Right now I've just got an lsi center channel so it wouldn't be too late to switch.

Just my perspective, yeah I do. Was never a big fan of the LSI line anyway. Too laid back for my tastes. The Sig series walks that line between the more in your face sound of the RTI series and the laid back sound of the LSI's. Has better balance in my view between the top and bottom and not offensive to the ears on those higher frequencies.

I guess anything can be offensive to the ears though when hooked up to the wrong gear. Think about it, nothing here is written in stone. Go get a listen, your local BestBuy should have them set up, decide for yourself if it's a sound you'd like.

Airplay355

I saw them in our local BB but they were stuffed into an asile with just a receivers width between them. Only towers were hooked up. Our BB seems to be about selling TVs, most of the floor is covered in boxes of TVs. I'll have to go back and check them out. I really do like the sound of the Lsi, always have. When I was younger I remember Frys or something had a sale on the Lsi7's so a bunch of people picked them up and dumped the older models with the seams. I grabbed a used pair and had a 2 channel setup with a musical fidelity integrated. I loved that setup and always wanted more Lsi but they were way out of my price range. But now

So for pre/pros, anyone have experience with any of the following? I'm looking for the newer 2.2 HDMI standard so that I can get a 4k TV. #2, the Denon is sold out but that model looks nice.

1) http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/intdrx3/integra-drx-3-7.2-ch-x-100-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html

2) http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx4000/denon-avr-x4000-7.2-ch-x-125-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html

3) http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrxa1030bl/yamaha-rx-a1030-7.2-ch-x-110-watts-networking-a/v-receiver/1.html#!specifications

The more I look at receivers the better they seem. They have lots of bells and whistles now that I could actually utilize. The Emotiva is bare bones but just as expensive.

Airplay355

My Marantz seems to have finally crapped out. Just as the Outlaw amp arrived (which is awesome by the way) the display permanently decided to stop working. Usually it would work for a while when first turned on and then as the unit heated up, it would quit. Now it doesn't work right from the start. The OSD also doesn't work.

Because of the display issues I think I accidentally had night mode on. Now I think I've got it off but can't tell for sure. Another problem is that I can't access the OSD to adjust speaker parameters. So my center and sub are set to off right now

I need to get a new unit ASAP. I'm a little worried about AC4L as I've gotten two refurbs from them before that came with issues. This Marantz is actually from there. I didn't realize all of their stuff was refurb.

I'm thinking about going with the Emotiva tonight unless there's something else I should consider. It seems like going for the newest HDMI standard for 4K really limits my options. Seems to me 4K is going to be mainstream soon though and I don't want to have to pick up something else in 3 years.

For fun, here's a picture of my Marantz lit up like a Christmas tree. If it doesn't shape up, it's going in the e-waste bin haha

Airplay355

Is it possible to run HDMI cables directly from a source (say Roku or DVD player) to a 4k display and then run digital audio outs, like optic cables, to a receiver for audio? I don't really care about using a receiver/processor for HDMI switching, I just thought that the audio was always going through the HDMI cable.

tonyb

Airplay355 wrote: »

Is it possible to run HDMI cables directly from a source (say Roku or DVD player) to a 4k display and then run digital audio outs, like optic cables, to a receiver for audio? I don't really care about using a receiver/processor for HDMI switching, I just thought that the audio was always going through the HDMI cable.

You can, but TV's in general are not the best for AUDIO QUALITY. Plus you'd limit yourself to dolby digital and any newer codecs like DTS Master audio or DD+ wouldn't be available to you.

Airplay355

what about using a digital out straight from the source? Are the optical outs on blu ray players active even when using an hdmi for video?

Airplay355

This Marantz is falling apart and honestly sounds like completely garbage now that I've added an amp. I suspect all the noise it makes is just getting amplified so it's more noticeable. I gotta find something good soon I thought I could go with an XSP-1 but then I realized those are stereo.

jeremymarcinko

Man get that AVR some room to breath, it looks like your shelf is right at the top. Your likely to keep going through receivers if they are not venting. Otherwise Marantz typically pairs well with Outlaw amps, note they are recommended on their site. I don't know about Emotiva, my Emotiva Pre didn't pair well with my ATI(Outlaw) amp.

Airplay355

It's got maybe .5" room above and room below from the feet. It's also completely open in the back and both sides. It's also not powering a thing. The outlaw has only a little more room but it's cool as a cucumber. It's a 10 year old refurbished receiver with lots of problems so if it cooks itself, I won't be too sad.

Airplay355

I picked up a used Outlaw 975 to hold me over until I figure out how to handle my pre/pro situation.

I also popped open the Marantz to blow out some of the dust. I can't find anything obviously wrong inside but who knows. When I got this AVR originally, the display only worked for a little while and then completely quit for years. One day, it came back. Now it's on but goes nuts. Other parts seem to be dying as well. Last night, the voltage of the LFE output wasn't enough to keep the amp on so my sub kept turning off. It may be time to say goodbye. It has served me well 10 years or so and has traveled all over the east cost haha

gp4jesus

Airplay355 wrote: »

what about using a digital out straight from the source? Are the optical outs on blu ray players active even when using an hdmi for video?

yup. Analogue too in the case of an LG in my boy's room

gp4jesus

Airplay355 wrote: »

I picked up a used Outlaw 975 to hold me over until I figure out how to handle my pre/pro situation.

great choice. Mine replaced a Rotel - 1/3 the $ new versus the Rotel and way better SQ. Can't wait for the 976 - 5-10X the tweak-a-bility and HDMI 2.2 to boot!

Tony

Airplay355

Glad to hear you like it! I was also interested in the 976 but I needed something sooner. So I think this will be a good in-between before getting something newer.

The Marantz is officially dead. I took it apart last night to hunt around for a problem and sure enough, there's a little burn mark on one side of the display. There must be other problems as well because when the display doesn't work on the front, the OSD won't work either. Time for the e-waste bin.

Airplay355

The outlaw 975 arrived today. It's SO much better than my old Marantz. Most of the normal complaints about it don't bother me. I didn't want all the extraneous features like bluetooth, wifi, 400 surround modes, etc. It's simple and sounds good, that's all I need for now. I don't care if the OSD looks like Frogger era graphics. I just need it to work, not look good.

I did have a problem with it when I first hooked it up. It was way too quiet. Listening at -5db when the max is 0 produced an average spl of 80 and a max of 90. Sure that's loud but not movie theater loud. There was also a bunch of white noise in quiet parts with it turned up that loud. From digging around online, it seems this was just the way that it was designed. The workaround is to bump all the speakers +6db. I tried this and I get the same spl output at -20db now without the white noise in quiet passages. So, I'm happy now A little weird to have to do this but what do I know. Maybe it's just because the Lsi are inefficient and I need the pre to push the amp harder to get the spl I want? Still, this amp doesn't even get warm. The pre-amp and cable box are warmer than the amp.

I've ordered some more blue jeans cable to wire up the surrounds and then I'll have them on the wall with wires in-wall. Next on the list is to pic up a 4k TV and a blu-ray player. I'm going to go for a Samsung player that will output audio separately from video. This will let me take advantage of 4k signals without needing a 4k compatible receiver to use as a pass through. I bet this will sound better anyway; video direct to TV and audio direct to preamp. I probably won't have everything setup until the 3rd week in July but I'll make sure to post some pictures then!

gp4jesus

Check the manual. Allow space around the Outlaw - minimum 3" above w/the rear open. Either that or a quiet low draw fan*.

Though my rack is open, I have one* blowing air over the middle - that's where I've noticed it gets barely warm under most conditions. At moderate levels decoding the newer codecs it will get Warm. Take it from me**, w/your channels @ set +6dB** YOU will experience a WARM 975, especially when you CRANK it for extended stretches. These days I rely upon gain from the EXOs*** easing the 975's load.
** been there!
***triamping my LCR & dedicated surround LR subs

Enjoy! Tony

Airplay355

Thanks Tony it has 4-5 inches above and is open on all sides. It was just normal warm, not hot. Nothing I was concerned about. I was just surprised that the amp runs so cool. I don't mind at all but I expected a 50lb amp to get pretty warm. I guess not.

I don't think I'll be adding extra speakers for more volume. The preamp is definitely what's causing the low volume and I just got this one to hold me over while I decided on what I wanted long term. It's definitely a great budget option but probably not what I'll keep long term.

gp4jesus

Yup! Meanwhile to protect your resale* value*, check the top during any loud marathon movie/music sessions. Even though mine runs cooler these days, that's* my "why" for a fan.

I'm looking forward to the 976 upgrade. In addition to its gross increased tweak-ability via individual 10 band PEQs on all 7.2 channels, its unbalanced & balanced outputs to plug into the balanced input of my EXOs. The .2 (sub outs) are independent* from each other. I know many of the less expensive feature laden AVRs have this* but w/out user adjustable 10 band PEQ.

Airplay355 wrote: »

I was just surprised that the amp runs so cool. I don't mind at all but I expected a 50lb amp to get pretty warm. I guess not.

For whatever reason the amp isn't working hard.

Can't recall if your speakers are 8 ohm or 4 or the sensitivity rating. If the former, that may partially explain your amp's cool running. If the latter, I'd be a bit suprized it stayed cool and they weren't louder.

One more thing about "loud." Tech support offered "it's the type of volume control..." to explain or explain away why my system didn't "crank" any more. Any way as I posted earlier, it's SQ and tweak-ability runs circles around a pre-HDMI* Rotel that retailed @ $1600 new back around 2002-2004.
* all but the newest** Rotels**, I believe, have HDMI issues
** I think they finally got got it right for $3500!

Enjoy. Tony