hooking two speaker wires into on plug..

say you get the speaker wires that you can bi wire, they have 4 wires in each cable so you have to put 2 of the wires in one banana plug if you are not going to bi wire.

would you just twist two of the wire together and than stick them in the banana or do you just stick each wire in there separately and tighten down the screw say its a banana with set screws,

i would imagine there is a proper way to do this..

1. Cambridge Azur 651A, Polk LSi M703, Sonos Connect, Audioquest type 4/king cobra cables

2. Denon DRA-397, Energy C-200.

Polk TSX-330T, PSW 505, PSW-250



«1

Comments

  • msgmsg Posts: 3,148
    Along these lines, I'm also wondering whether there would be any negative effects of having 2 unused, unterminated, unshielded conductors riding alongside two active ones inside the jacket.

    What would be the recommended way to terminate 4 conductors, anyway? 2+2, or 4 into 1, presuming all conductors can fit and be screw-did (<< censor bypass) down?

    Or bi-wire configuration on both ends?
  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 1,351
    Try spades instead of bananas. Plenty of room on a 5-way binding post. You can also buy pre-terminated bi-wire cables.

    Most, not all, people hear no difference between conventional wiring, with a good quality jumper and bi-wiring.
  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,111
    I wouldn't leave two hanging. I would re-terminate the ends to use properly. Sticking a banana plug sidways through the bare wire hole is asking for a snapped off binding post... just ask polkfarmboy. If you want to keep biwire ability then use spades on 2 wires that way you could still use the banana plug as well. If they are spades all around then why are we discussing this :p you can if you have the room get them under the two post in most cases.
    My 2 cents
  • gmcmangmcman Posts: 802
    edited June 17
    would you just twist two of the wire together and than stick them in the banana or do you just stick each wire in there separately and tighten down the screw say its a banana with set screws,

    Are the speaker leads terminated or will you need to cut the ends off to twist them...or are they just unterminated?

    What banana plugs are you trying to use? I would assume a good solid crimp on loose wire would be better than clamping two banana ends on top of each other if im understanding your question correctly.
    msg wrote: »
    Along these lines, I'm also wondering whether there would be any negative effects of having 2 unused, unterminated, unshielded conductors riding alongside two active ones inside the jacket.

    I remember speaking to someone about this in the past, and there is a phenomena involved where a parallel, unused length of wire, with no ending point connection, will try to return some unused signal and end up at the point of origin.

    Perhaps the electrical gurus can chime in on that but I don't know how much I'll effect it would have.

  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,111
    Okay I guess I should have had my glasses on when I tried reading early this morning it didn't work out so well. Okay I see what you're trying to say now if I was you there's two things you can do yes you can twist the wires together and put them into one binding post if the binding post has a big enough hole to accept the wires that you're using. Now there's also a little thing called a crimp sleeve I've bought some through via Blue if you search viablue crimp sleeve you should come up with a few they're not very expensive you would twist your wires together and then crimp them with the proper crimping tool which is can be bought in any electrical store for crimping items together and then use that to put inside your binding post and use the set screws if you're going to go that route I suggest that the set screws be on the opposite side of the crimp. So as you crimp it sort of makes a half moon type shape put the circular side uncrimp side up against the set screws so therefore when you tighten the set screws down they will go against that piece of crimp and they will push against it instead of going into the crimp side which usually does not leave much of a attention on the set screws in my experience. And like was mentioned earlier if you go with all Spades then you can always use them again with a bi wire type setup but that's your choice if you only have two binding post it doesn't make sense to go ahead and leave all that underneath the binding post itself just go ahead and combine those together and make a 2-channel connection
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,363
    Spades....use spades on the ends if not already terminated. Yes, if you have a bi-wire set of cables, and only have one set of speaker posts, you can put both positives together, both negatives together on their respective posts.

    I wouldn't twist them together though, just use spades like I said and double them up on the speaker posts....2 positives on one side, 2 negatives on the other.
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  • dannylightningdannylightning Posts: 175
    raw wire off the spool is way cheaper than buying a prepaid wire so i would be buying wire off a the spool that is not terminated. i personally cant see how bi wire would do anything, i have tried it before and i have not heard any difference at all. bi wire does not really interest me.

    one reason to get non terminated wire, for a example i saw a set of already made wires that cost 250 bucks. you can get the same bare wire for less 100 bucks. your paying allot more for bananas and some sleeving to make them look pretty.

    i am not sure what banana plugs i would be using, i was kind of looking at the sewell silverbacks they are made of copper and they gold plated., audioquest bfa 100 bananas are made of copper and they silver plated. or i may possibly even not terminate them at all and save a few bucks.

    some of the wire like this seems to be 4 thin conductors and wen put together it makes a 14 gauge wire so you would not wan to leave any of that hanging or you would have some small guage wires.. some of it is two thick wires and will make a 10 or 9 gauge wire which is over kill but that does sound appealing lol

    i was reading something about how the wire with 4 conductors has less interference and what not. im not 100% sure which wire i am going to try yet but i am thinking about getting some 4 conductor wire.
    1. Cambridge Azur 651A, Polk LSi M703, Sonos Connect, Audioquest type 4/king cobra cables

    2. Denon DRA-397, Energy C-200.

    Polk TSX-330T, PSW 505, PSW-250



  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,111
    Canare wire is good for the price. Can usually be bought for a little over a dollar a foot. It is 4x14 gauge wire. Over kill is not such a bad thing.
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,363
    raw wire off the spool is way cheaper than buying a prepaid wire so i would be buying wire off a the spool that is not terminated. i personally cant see how bi wire would do anything, i have tried it before and i have not heard any difference at all. bi wire does not really interest me.

    one reason to get non terminated wire, for a example i saw a set of already made wires that cost 250 bucks. you can get the same bare wire for less 100 bucks. your paying allot more for bananas and some sleeving to make them look pretty.

    i am not sure what banana plugs i would be using, i was kind of looking at the sewell silverbacks they are made of copper and they gold plated., audioquest bfa 100 bananas are made of copper and they silver plated. or i may possibly even not terminate them at all and save a few bucks.

    some of the wire like this seems to be 4 thin conductors and wen put together it makes a 14 gauge wire so you would not wan to leave any of that hanging or you would have some small guage wires.. some of it is two thick wires and will make a 10 or 9 gauge wire which is over kill but that does sound appealing lol

    i was reading something about how the wire with 4 conductors has less interference and what not. im not 100% sure which wire i am going to try yet but i am thinking about getting some 4 conductor wire.

    Ok, so you haven't bought the wire yet ? Don't buy bi-wire if you don't need or want it then. Nothing wrong with single runs, I'd just use some of the same wire to make jumpers for the speakers instead of those brass plates they use.

    There's more to wire than you elude to, different quality of it, designs, etc. that all have some effect on the sound. Kinda like shoes, all shoes are not created equal and offer different levels of comfort.

    I suggest to everyone to buy used cables, the price difference over retail is astoundingly cheaper. Good luck on your endeavor.
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  • dannylightningdannylightning Posts: 175
    tonyb wrote: »
    raw wire off the spool is way cheaper than buying a prepaid wire so i would be buying wire off a the spool that is not terminated. i personally cant see how bi wire would do anything, i have tried it before and i have not heard any difference at all. bi wire does not really interest me.

    one reason to get non terminated wire, for a example i saw a set of already made wires that cost 250 bucks. you can get the same bare wire for less 100 bucks. your paying allot more for bananas and some sleeving to make them look pretty.

    i am not sure what banana plugs i would be using, i was kind of looking at the sewell silverbacks they are made of copper and they gold plated., audioquest bfa 100 bananas are made of copper and they silver plated. or i may possibly even not terminate them at all and save a few bucks.

    some of the wire like this seems to be 4 thin conductors and wen put together it makes a 14 gauge wire so you would not wan to leave any of that hanging or you would have some small guage wires.. some of it is two thick wires and will make a 10 or 9 gauge wire which is over kill but that does sound appealing lol

    i was reading something about how the wire with 4 conductors has less interference and what not. im not 100% sure which wire i am going to try yet but i am thinking about getting some 4 conductor wire.

    Ok, so you haven't bought the wire yet ? Don't buy bi-wire if you don't need or want it then. Nothing wrong with single runs, I'd just use some of the same wire to make jumpers for the speakers instead of those brass plates they use.

    There's more to wire than you elude to, different quality of it, designs, etc. that all have some effect on the sound. Kinda like shoes, all shoes are not created equal and offer different levels of comfort.

    I suggest to everyone to buy used cables, the price difference over retail is astoundingly cheaper. Good luck on your endeavor.

    i been looking at this audio quest type 4 wire raw off the spool. every review i read on it is good except for those who say it does not sound any different than the budget wire.. i have never seen a audio cable with so many good reviews from people who have bought it. sounds like its worth trying out..

    my current speaker cable is low end.. one has harsh resonance on allot of recordings oh the cymbals and higher pitched vocals.. besides that the wire sounds good

    the other wire i have is not as details and not as bright, i dont hear the same issue with the highs but it has a little bit of harshness to the mids when listening to rock and roll which i do not hear on the other set of cables..

    so i think i need to get a nicer set of speaker cables to get rid of any harshness,

    im debating on trying the less expensive furez cable, i hear some people sayings it has fixed harshness issues. or the audio quest type 4
    1. Cambridge Azur 651A, Polk LSi M703, Sonos Connect, Audioquest type 4/king cobra cables

    2. Denon DRA-397, Energy C-200.

    Polk TSX-330T, PSW 505, PSW-250



  • msgmsg Posts: 3,148
    Hey guys, just a quick note here - I think I may have confused Danny's original question there with my follow-up about what to do with 4 conductors in a single termination, since I knew he was considering using Audioquest Type 4 and was wondering about leaving two wires unused in a jacket?

    Some of you may recall Danny just recently picked up a set of nice 703s in MVC. We got to talking a bit off the board on his impressions and such during break-in/burn-in, and ended up talking about cables as a means of tailoring the sound and issues he's noticing. Danny's got some good history/experience in stereo and has some pretty ambitious goals for SQ and imaging. He's tried some different cables and can pick up the differences that different cables make and wants to try a few different things without going too crazy.

    The original question was, yes, how to actually best go about making the connection in a banana plug when working with multiple conductors
    1. Twist and insert, or
    2. Insert and screw down without twisting
    3. Any other tips/tricks?

    I'd mentioned that my experience with the Canare Star Quad seemed a bit too edgy and detailed for me, and the bottom end seemed much thinner, which could just have been the perception from what I felt was overwhelming upper frequencies. The cables I used actually have two runs of Canare 8S each. Also used XLRs by same company, but not sure what type of cable is used there. I suggested, instead, to consider some no frills builds with Doug's DIY Furez kits both for ICs and SCs to see whether the Furez signature is more to his liking. It was for me.

    Side note: Danny just slipped into the rabbit hole, and the poor guy may not even realize it yet.
  • ZLTFULZLTFUL Posts: 4,040
    Hi:

    I just bi-wired my speakers. Blue Jeans Cable sells Canare 4S11 (14 gauge/4 wires) and Douglas connections sells I think both 12/4 and 14/4 speakers wire. MediaBridge at Amazon has OFC 12/4, 100 foot wire roll for $80. I used Media Bridge Banana Plugs. They are very easy to use. They accept very wide gauge wire (as wide as 8 gauge) and that makes it easy to put both wires thru and then fold them over onto the plug's a self-crimping connection. I twisted the wires together to make them as skinny as possible and after they went thru the hole I untwisted them and then folded the wires over onto the self-crimping teeth. The MediaBridge Banana Plugs at Amazon have graphical instructions for how to use them.

    You can also buy already terminated speaker wire at Blue Jeans Cable for bi-wiring.

    Please re-read the OP. The OP states that he *has* bi-wire cables but wants to use them with single binding post speakers.

    Your comment/recommendations are opposite of the problem the OP is inquiring about.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

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  • msgmsg Posts: 3,148
    edited June 17
    Haha, crap man, what am I thinking - even I misunderstood the plan here lol
    There won't be any leftover wires going 2 per connector in a 4S configuration, dehr. Sorry for complicating this.

    Anyway, personally, with screw down type connectors, I would medium/loose twist two wires together, ensuring the right amount of insulation is stripped off to ensure the wire bottoms out in a Silverback connector, and then thread down each of the opposing set screws. I say medium/loose twist so that the set screws can squish out the wires inside the connector so that the screws easily seat properly otherwise you might not get the barrel threaded over. These set screws can be a little soft, too, so if there's too much resistance, the slotted head with deform and slip. (ask me how I know)

    I'm not 100%, but I think the Sewell Silverback may just be gold plated brass core? not copper. I use these connectors in some of my DIY cables, but on the more serious stuff, I'd probably go gold or silver plated copper.
  • Msabot1Msabot1 Posts: 1,779
    Question for Danny...Why use four conductor wire if not bi wiring?...
  • dannylightningdannylightning Posts: 175
    Msabot1 wrote: »
    Question for Danny...Why use four conductor wire if not bi wiring?...

    after everything i have read about the audio quest type 4 wires i am pretty interested in trying those out. even tho they are a 4 conductor wire it looks like most people do not use them for bi wire and the prepaid already terminated version from the factor is not offered in bi wire version either.

    you got two 17 gauge and two 20 gauge conductors in there so its like a 14 gauge wire when put together so im not really sure it would be a good idea to use them for bi wire.
    1. Cambridge Azur 651A, Polk LSi M703, Sonos Connect, Audioquest type 4/king cobra cables

    2. Denon DRA-397, Energy C-200.

    Polk TSX-330T, PSW 505, PSW-250



  • Msabot1Msabot1 Posts: 1,779
    Not familiar with Audio Quest wire...bi wiring or not,it's a dang good idea to keep lengths and gauges uniform...
  • dannylightningdannylightning Posts: 175
    edited June 17
    Msabot1 wrote: »
    Not familiar with Audio Quest wire...bi wiring or not,it's a dang good idea to keep lengths and gauges uniform...

    that is how they manufacture them and people seem to have lots of good things to say about them.. looking at that photo and its says its solid long grain copper.. maybe you cant twist the wires together..


    wxzqado91on7.jpeglvoxjzxnjydf.jpg




    1. Cambridge Azur 651A, Polk LSi M703, Sonos Connect, Audioquest type 4/king cobra cables

    2. Denon DRA-397, Energy C-200.

    Polk TSX-330T, PSW 505, PSW-250



  • dannylightningdannylightning Posts: 175
    i just found a photo of some instructions from audio quest..


    195ezijvgv97.jpeg

    1. Cambridge Azur 651A, Polk LSi M703, Sonos Connect, Audioquest type 4/king cobra cables

    2. Denon DRA-397, Energy C-200.

    Polk TSX-330T, PSW 505, PSW-250



  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,363
    If your dead set on buying a bi-wire cable, use it as such with the 703's, don't even bother trying to make it a single run by combining leads.

    That will save you from having to make jumpers with the same wire, heck, you could still just use bare wire ends and not worry about terminating anything.
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  • dannylightningdannylightning Posts: 175
    edited June 17
    tonyb wrote: »
    If your dead set on buying a bi-wire cable, use it as such with the 703's, don't even bother trying to make it a single run by combining leads.

    That will save you from having to make jumpers with the same wire, heck, you could still just use bare wire ends and not worry about terminating anything.

    do you think spades or bananas can degrade the sound or change the sound ?

    using that particular cable as a bi wire you would have 20 gauge going to one set of binding post and 17 gauge wire to the other set of biding post. you don't think that would be a issue ?
    1. Cambridge Azur 651A, Polk LSi M703, Sonos Connect, Audioquest type 4/king cobra cables

    2. Denon DRA-397, Energy C-200.

    Polk TSX-330T, PSW 505, PSW-250



  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 1,351


    i been looking at this audio quest type 4 wire raw off the spool. every review i read on it is good except for those who say it does not sound any different than the budget wire.. i have never seen a audio cable with so many good reviews from people who have bought it. sounds like its worth trying out..

    my current speaker cable is low end.. one has harsh resonance on allot of recordings oh the cymbals and higher pitched vocals.. besides that the wire sounds good

    the other wire i have is not as details and not as bright, i dont hear the same issue with the highs but it has a little bit of harshness to the mids when listening to rock and roll which i do not hear on the other set of cables..

    so i think i need to get a nicer set of speaker cables to get rid of any harshness,

    im debating on trying the less expensive furez cable, i hear some people sayings it has fixed harshness issues. or the audio quest type 4
    [/quote]

    Speaker wire may not be the issue.

    Could be something else in the audio chain that is causing the issue.

    Some components don't play well with each other, and some speakers don't like certain equipment. There is also interconnects and HDMI cables that play a roll in the equation.

    Could also be a dirty power issue.

    May help if you list gear, wire, power conditioning - if any. If you have a bright AVR, for example a Yamaha RX series, mated with Polk RTI series speakers; I don't think any cable on the market can calm that combination down.

  • dannylightningdannylightning Posts: 175
    edited June 17
    rpf65 wrote: »

    i been looking at this audio quest type 4 wire raw off the spool. every review i read on it is good except for those who say it does not sound any different than the budget wire.. i have never seen a audio cable with so many good reviews from people who have bought it. sounds like its worth trying out..

    my current speaker cable is low end.. one has harsh resonance on allot of recordings oh the cymbals and higher pitched vocals.. besides that the wire sounds good

    the other wire i have is not as details and not as bright, i dont hear the same issue with the highs but it has a little bit of harshness to the mids when listening to rock and roll which i do not hear on the other set of cables..

    so i think i need to get a nicer set of speaker cables to get rid of any harshness,

    im debating on trying the less expensive furez cable, i hear some people sayings it has fixed harshness issues. or the audio quest type 4



    Cambridge azur 651a integrated 2 channel amp,

    polk lsim703 speakers

    i have 3 models of audio quest interconnects,

    sonos connect playing music (flac files) or a Sony blue ray player if i want to play a CD

    monoprice speaker wire which seems to be on the bright side harsh on the highs with all my interconnects. if i turn the treble down that hardness goes away but than its sounds a little dark.

    another set of budget speaker wire that is not as bright or harsh sounding. but can sound a little harsh on the mids mainly for rock music depending on which interconnect i have hooked up. this wire and my king cobra interconnects do not like each other but sounds fine with my evergreen or what ever the other one i have is.. i cant remember what it was called, its a older model

    my speaker wire is about the only thing in my system thats budget grade.. so i think its time to try some nicer speaker cable. i like a warm warm sound . i don't like bright.



    1. Cambridge Azur 651A, Polk LSi M703, Sonos Connect, Audioquest type 4/king cobra cables

    2. Denon DRA-397, Energy C-200.

    Polk TSX-330T, PSW 505, PSW-250



  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,111
    DO NOT USE THAT WIRE AS BI-WIRE. Just do as AQ states in the page you listed. Buy a little extra make a jumper with.good spades if you want to go to both sets of binding post. Remove the factory jumper. Spades or bananas from the same company. Never used sewell connectors but have used the HDMI cables they work pretty good for the price. I have no complaints as i have used their older versions and they are still in play. Some folks use spades on one end and bananas on the other for the jumper. Whatever works best for you in your situation. It's really a personal preference IMO
  • rpf65rpf65 Posts: 1,351
    May sound strange, but I would try a power conditioner first.

    Had a Yamaha RX series mated with RTI A5's, and added a Panamax MR-4300, and it took some of the brightness out, as well as added a little to the mid-range. Also gave me better surge protection compared to the lower end Monster Power surge protector that I had.

    Not saying anything against Monster Power, but it was one of their lower end units. Got the Panamax from BB, open box, think 1/3 off.

  • BlueBirdMusicBlueBirdMusic Registered User Posts: 238
    edited June 18
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    DO NOT USE THAT WIRE AS BI-WIRE. Just do as AQ states in the page you listed. Buy a little extra make a jumper with.good spades if you want to go to both sets of binding post. Remove the factory jumper. Spades or bananas from the same company. Never used sewell connectors but have used the HDMI cables they work pretty good for the price. I have no complaints as i have used their older versions and they are still in play. Some folks use spades on one end and bananas on the other for the jumper. Whatever works best for you in your situation. It's really a personal preference IMO

    ^^^^^ THIS.

    I have done this with and without the pants. If you use the pants, you will be proud of your work. I have used shrink wrap instead of the pants. I used AQ bananas and spades. The AQ bananas and spades are high quality. Best Buy sells bananas for $30.
    (If you have cats, they love the little tool used for tightening)

    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/audioquest-set-screw-banana-plugs-4-pack-black/9522661.p?skuId=9522661

    This company has it all - spades for $40. I have purchased AQ from them. They still have some discontinued stuff by AQ. Have fun.
    https://hcmaudio.com/collections/audioquest/products/audioquest-suregrip-100-bfa-banana-plugs-gold-or-silver
  • BlueBirdMusicBlueBirdMusic Registered User Posts: 238
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    ........ Now there's also a little thing called a crimp sleeve I've bought some through via Blue if you search viablue crimp sleeve you should come up with a few they're not very expensive you would twist your wires together and then crimp them with the proper crimping tool which is can be bought in any electrical store for crimping items together and then use that to put inside your binding post speaker connectors (bananas/spades) :) :) and use the set screws if you're going to go that route I suggest that the set screws be on the opposite side of the crimp. So as you crimp it sort of makes a half moon type shape put the circular side uncrimp side up against the set screws so therefore when you tighten the set screws down they will go against that piece of crimp and they will push against it instead of going into the crimp side which usually does not leave much of a attention on the set screws in my experience. ........

    pitdogg2,
    I like this suggestion. I have purchased ViaBlue "cone type" Speaker Spikes from this company in NJ. They also have the crimp sleeves you mentioned. Here is a link and picture of their use. It makes sense that the crimp sleeves provide a better connection with set screws.

    One final thought for dannylightning is the AQ Type 4 cable is not necessarily "bi-wire cable". Type 4 can be used to create a "bi-wire cable". The AQ concept with their products is the use of various sizes and types of wire to provide one signal whether positive or negative.

    https://www.avoutlet.com/cables-connectors/av-connectors/speaker/accessories/viablue-crimp-sleeves/

    On left are the crimped wires. On right the crimped wires in WBT bananas. Note on the far right, the two crimped 12 awg wires into a single WBT banana.
    rmvnkidi2s9d.jpg
  • BlueBirdMusicBlueBirdMusic Registered User Posts: 238
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    .................Now there's also a little thing called a crimp sleeve I've bought some through via Blue if you search viablue crimp sleeve you should come up with a few they're not very expensive you would twist your wires together and then crimp them with the proper crimping tool which is can be bought in any electrical store for crimping items together and then use that to put inside your binding post speaker connectors (bananas/spades) :) :) and use the set screws if you're going to go that route I suggest that the set screws be on the opposite side of the crimp. So as you crimp it sort of makes a half moon type shape put the circular side uncrimp side up against the set screws so therefore when you tighten the set screws down they will go against that piece of crimp and they will push against it instead of going into the crimp side which usually does not leave much of a attention on the set screws in my experience. ........

    pitdogg2,
    I like the suggestion of using the ViaBlue crimp sleeves. It makes sense the connection is better with set screws and the strands are not damaged by the set screws. I have purchased ViaBlue "cone type" speaker spikes from this company in NJ and they have the crimp sleeves.

    https://www.avoutlet.com/cables-connectors/av-connectors/speaker/accessories/viablue-crimp-sleeves/

    Here is a picture of the use of the crimp sleeves for dannylightning. On the left the wires crimped. On the right the crimped wires in WBT bananas. Note on the far right the two crimped 12 awg wires in a single WBT banana.

    ormog9y8wf9g.jpg


    dannylightning, AQ Type 4 cable is not necessarily "bi-wire" cable. It can be used to make a "bi-wire" cable. The concept of AQ in its cable is the use of various sizes and types of wire for an individual signal whether positive or negative.
  • dannylightningdannylightning Posts: 175
    one thing i was reading.. i think audioquest said this.. you want to crank down the binding post or set screws very tight so they puncture into the copper to give you better signal transfer.. so many opinions on how to do things.. those crimp selves do look pretty interesting tho.

    power condition may be something i should look into. any good ones that are more like your average power strip with surge protector.. i would rather have something a little smaller and compact over something that need to set on top of my amp.
    1. Cambridge Azur 651A, Polk LSi M703, Sonos Connect, Audioquest type 4/king cobra cables

    2. Denon DRA-397, Energy C-200.

    Polk TSX-330T, PSW 505, PSW-250



  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 7,111
    I've bought many item's from HCM Audio great folks.
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