Help me build a 2 way speaker

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EndersShadow
EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
edited May 2017 in Speakers
So I won a pair of beautiful horns at LSAF this year. Now I'm trying to put them to use and build out a speaker based on them.

At LSAF after some discussion with a couple folks, Russ Gates being one, we talked about doing a simple 2 way speaker. I can't do a corner loaded horn in my room as I don’t have 2 true corners.

I consulted with Wayne of PI Speakers (who made the horn) and he suggested two tweeters and two midrange/bass drivers to use, a B&C DE250 or JBL 2426H on the tweeter horn, and a JBL 2226H 15” or Eminence Definimax 4012HO 12” midwoofer.

I honestly can't see myself affording the JBL's as they would be about 2k in drivers alone, and I was hoping to get away with even a 10" midrange driver, but dont know how to spec out what would work best. The B&C and Eminence drivers will run about 600 for 2 of each and fit the bill and my wallet a bit better. Additionally I wanted to try and keep the midbox as small as possible while still playing decently low.

I also like that the Eminence driver has some suggested boxes already thrown together for you, but I'm not sure if their largest vented box (2.5 cubic feet if I'm reading right) digs deep enough for music as it starts to drop off around 45hz.

I can tell you I do really like the efficiency of the drivers as the Eminence mid is 96db and the B&C tweeter is around 110db. Means a small little tube amp/integrated is very possible.

These will be used with a sub, but long term I'd like the option of running them without one and getting them to play all the frequencies of most regular music (excluding my 20hz dubstep stuff).

So what I'm needing help with is this:

- What size box should I be using for my midrange/bass driver.
- What configuration should I use regular vented, bandpass or sealed (guessing vented of some sort but not 100% sure)
- How the heck do I design a crossover for these? Should I use a MiniDSP 2x4 and go fully active
- Am I going to be looking at a 4 or 16 ohm load on them given both drivers are 8 ohm

I'm beyond outside my wheelhouse here so looking for some advice.

Looking forward to starting to get this project to move forward and hopefully result in something cool.

Tagging some folks who know a bit about speaker building and horns....

@mhardy6647 @RuSsMaN @Wardsweb
"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
Post edited by EndersShadow on
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
    edited May 2017
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    Yes, a new recruit to the dark side - the force is strong with this one :)

    So -- tell me more about the horns in question? What is their cutoff? Are they CD horns (i.e., do they require EQ)? What size are their throats (1", 1.4", 2")? What driver mounting configuration(s) will they accept? (screw on, Altec 2-bolt, JBL 3-bolt, Altec 3-bolt, JBL 4-bolt etc.)?

    Remember that you can use a high sensitivity driver and pad it down to match a lower sensitivity (ahem, cheaper) woofer if necessary :)

    My guess is you'll want a woofer with good (relatively speaking) HF extension, and cross in the treble horn as low as practical (which will depend on the driver & the horn) -- you said you want a two-way, yes?

    I will read your post carefully -- I wasn't able to force myself to concentrate (yet) on the information in there... but I shall :)

    There is much fun to be had!

    32398308763_320b6b8a8f_b.jpgDSC_7248 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
    edited May 2017
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    Crossovers :)

    There is a lot to be said for active XOs (modern or vintage) and biamplification -- but you don't have to start there!

    I cannot throw stones at DSP -- I know folks with (ultra) high-sensitivity systems who use it to good effect; but (personally) I like simple. Sort of like Warren Buffett ;) I tend to avoid technologies that I cannot actually understand myself.

    I am thus, not surprisingly, something of a crossover Luddite -- my opinion was (and is) that simple first-order XOs (on the treble driver, or both drives, depending) are a good place to start. A treble driver that is more sensitive than the woofer is a "plus" here, I'd opine, since a variable L-pad can be used to dial in the HF response to be either as flat as possible (measured) or as pleasant as possible (by ear).

    33079486532_ca3cfdaee1_b.jpgDSC_7289 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

    That's a (roughly) 500 Hz first order XO for a 16 ohm treble driver (with 16 ohm L-pad) and an 8 ohm "woofer" :)
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
    edited May 2017
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    So -- tell me more about the horns in question? What is their cutoff? Are they CD horns (i.e., do they require EQ)? What size are their throats (1", 1.4", 2")? What driver mounting configuration(s) will they accept? (screw on, Altec 2-bolt, JBL 3-bolt, Altec 3-bolt, JBL 4-bolt etc.)?

    I have inquired for some more spec's on the horn as honestly I got NO CLUE on any of that lol. From the pictures (shown again below) I think they are setup to handle either 2 bolt or 3 bolt, but beyond that, no clue.

    8tuawc3gxceu.jpg
    m1z2trrxvszz.jpg
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Remember that you can use a high sensitivity driver and pad it down to match a lower sensitivity (ahem, cheaper) woofer if necessary :)

    My guess is you'll want a woofer with good (relatively speaking) HF extension, and cross in the treble horn as low as practical (which will depend on the driver & the horn) -- you said you want a two-way, yes?

    Yes, I do want a basic 2 way as I figured that would be the best and easiest implementation of things.

    The tweeter specs are below:

    Power handling: 60 watts RMS/120 watts program above
    Recommended crossover of 1.6 kHz/12 dB slope •
    Impedance: 8 ohms
    Frequency response: 1,000-18,000 Hz
    SPL: 108.5 dB 1W/1m

    The woofer specs I think your wanting are:

    Power Handling: 600 Watts
    Impedance:8 ohms
    Frequency Response: 48 to 2,600 Hz
    Sensitivity: 96.2 dB 1W/1m

    So the drivers do have a decent amount of overlap to play with.

    Wayne also had this to say (which was before we talked drivers)

    ***********************************************

    Me: My room is fairly small and I don't have two corners to do a corner loaded setup but am open to any other suggestions or discussion about how to put them to good use. My basic thought is a basic 2 way with a 10" driver for the midrange and low end, but I'm by no means a speaker designer so I wanted to get your thoughts

    Wayne: What you describe would work pretty well. It would be sort of like a mini-VOTT, with a horn tweeter mounted on top of a vented cabinet. I would suggest a high-efficiency 10” or 12” driver that is capable of smooth response up to 1500Hz or so

    ***********************************************

    My preference on crossovers is something super basic and simple that works well. I'm trying to keep the number of parts at a minimum so I can justify spending a bit more on GOOD parts since there are not a bunch.

    I'm not stuck at all on active or bi-amping and honestly that may be just WAAY beyond what I want to get into.
    Post edited by EndersShadow on
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
    edited May 2017
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    So, Wayne's advice sounds good to me! :)
    Wayne: What you describe would work pretty well. It would be sort of like a mini-VOTT, with a horn tweeter mounted on top of a vented cabinet. I would suggest a high-efficiency 10” or 12” driver that is capable of smooth response up to 1500Hz or so

    ***********************************************

    Do you have any information about the horn you are using?
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    So, Wayne's advice sounds good to me! :)
    Wayne: What you describe would work pretty well. It would be sort of like a mini-VOTT, with a horn tweeter mounted on top of a vented cabinet. I would suggest a high-efficiency 10” or 12” driver that is capable of smooth response up to 1500Hz or so

    ***********************************************

    Do you have any information about the horn you are using?

    Ok, I'm dumb here, but you mean the thing in the pictures (that I'm calling a horn, but maybe its not a horn lol)? If so, the answer is no not yet, but I'm working on it.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
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    You know what I might think about doing? (bwa-hah-hah-hah-hah-hah-hahh!)

    It might be tonnes of cheap fun to use a high sensitivity, high Qts "fullrange" woofer on an open baffle topped with your horn/driver and augmented with a subwoofer.

    The nice thing about a driver like an EV SP12B is that it will have extended, relatively flat (and relatively musical!) response well into the midrange.

    Picture this:

    Extended range, high Qts "woofer" on an open baffle with a choke to roll off response above, say, 2 kHz (first order; i.e., 6 dB per octave).
    First order 2 kHz XO to the B&C compression driver mounted on your horn and a variable L-pad to adjust the HF relative to the LF

    optionally:
    Add an active subwoofer crossed at, say, 50 Hz (adjust to taste).

    I -- ahem -- have a pair of very interesting drivers that I could send you to try "on approval" :)if you wanted to try something like that.

    25746164081_f146a5e611_b.jpgRCA LS15 rearview by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
    25214682053_94ba53c713_b.jpgRCA LS15 cone by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

    That's an OEM version of an EV "Wolverine" LS-15 driver that someone circumsized (de-whizzered) :blush:

    I'll also look at/for/think about vented enclosures & the woofer Wayne suggested.
    (and give others a chance to weigh in!
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    I'll also look at/for/think about vented enclosures & the woofer Wayne suggested. (and give others a chance to weigh in!

    Love your idea's but I'm gonna wait for others thoughts and what Wayne suggested as its a known recipe if you will, so I'm not having to re-invent the wheel.

    Here is what I think your asking for:

    Those horns are made by Bill Martinelli and they’re 800Hz horns with a conical throat and hybrid expansion. They’re not CD, but relatively close, and benefit from mass-rolloff compensation just like CD horns do. They mount a standard bolt-on 1” driver.
    DSkip wrote: »
    Try to get Luther on board as well. PM him as it might draw his attention to it better than an @. Luther has the best set of horns I've ever heard and its all because of HIS work.

    Will do.

    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
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    Yes, you should get all the info you can (or, at least, all that you want); my approach is "off-center" for sure ;)

    Yes, that's the horn info needed; those are reputed to be very fine horns -- it does sound like they'll benefit from CD horn EQ, though -- the easiest way ;) to do that is with an active XO; many of them have the CD EQ built in; just flip a switch!

    By all means, PM Luther! You can PM a group of folks if you wish, too (just sayin').
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
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    I WANT ALL THE INFO lol... I'm speaker dumb so I want try to go KISS while still getting high fidelity lol....
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,314
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    Not sure if this will go to the midrange you would need for a 2 way but, Scan-Speak and SEAS makes some great drivers
    https://madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-12-subwoofers/scan-speak-32w/8878t01-revelator-13-subwoofer/
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,314
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    or maybe a pair of https://madisoundspeakerstore.com/index.php?p=cart
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
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    erniejade wrote: »
    or maybe a pair of https://madisoundspeakerstore.com/index.php?p=cart

    Link no workie
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • erniejade
    erniejade Posts: 6,314
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    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-fullrange/seas-h1794-fea18rcz-7-full-range/
    Klipsch The Nines, Audioquest Thunderbird Interconnect, Innuos Zen MK3 W4S recovery, Revolution Audio Labs USB & Ethernet, Border Patrol SE-I, Audioquest Niagara 5000 & Thunder, Cullen Crossover II PC's.
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
    edited May 2017
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    erniejade wrote: »
    https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-fullrange/seas-h1794-fea18rcz-7-full-range/

    That one looks interesting, and I do like the price.....

    Since you do a lot of music & DJ'ing using pro audio type drivers, what frequency do you think are MUST HAVES from Left/Right
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
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    DSkip wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    By all means, PM Luther! You can PM a group of folks if you wish, too (just sayin').

    Hey Doc,

    I hope that didn't come across as a nudge against you as that wasn't my intention. I just don't want him to miss out on another great resource.

    Nope, not at all!

    I love to give advice -- but I always worry about the consequences of anyone taking my advice! :) It's always good to get a second (or more) opinion!
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  • Wardsweb
    Wardsweb Posts: 903
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    EndersShadow wrote: »
    Those horns are made by Bill Martinelli and they’re 800Hz horns with a conical throat and hybrid expansion. They’re not CD, but relatively close, and benefit from mass-rolloff compensation just like CD horns do. They mount a standard bolt-on 1” driver.

    Have you thought about a nice two way? Maybe an Econowave? As pretty as the horn is, you will want to show it off. How about a bass cabinet with the horn sitting on top?
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  • ZLTFUL
    ZLTFUL Posts: 5,640
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    Wardsweb wrote: »
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    Those horns are made by Bill Martinelli and they’re 800Hz horns with a conical throat and hybrid expansion. They’re not CD, but relatively close, and benefit from mass-rolloff compensation just like CD horns do. They mount a standard bolt-on 1” driver.

    Have you thought about a nice two way? Maybe an Econowave? As pretty as the horn is, you will want to show it off. How about a bass cabinet with the horn sitting on top?

    This is what I was trying to drill into the young padawan's head but clearly he weren't listenin' t' me none.
    "Some people find it easier to be conceited rather than correct."

    "Unwad those panties and have a good time man. We're all here to help each other, no matter how it might appear." DSkip
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
    edited May 2017
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    Wardsweb wrote: »
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    Those horns are made by Bill Martinelli and they’re 800Hz horns with a conical throat and hybrid expansion. They’re not CD, but relatively close, and benefit from mass-rolloff compensation just like CD horns do. They mount a standard bolt-on 1” driver.

    Have you thought about a nice two way? Maybe an Econowave? As pretty as the horn is, you will want to show it off. How about a bass cabinet with the horn sitting on top?

    I thought that was what he wanted to do -- maybe I misunderstood?


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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
    edited May 2017
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    Wardsweb wrote: »
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    Those horns are made by Bill Martinelli and they’re 800Hz horns with a conical throat and hybrid expansion. They’re not CD, but relatively close, and benefit from mass-rolloff compensation just like CD horns do. They mount a standard bolt-on 1” driver.

    Have you thought about a nice two way? Maybe an Econowave? As pretty as the horn is, you will want to show it off. How about a bass cabinet with the horn sitting on top?
    ZLTFUL wrote: »
    Wardsweb wrote: »
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    Those horns are made by Bill Martinelli and they’re 800Hz horns with a conical throat and hybrid expansion. They’re not CD, but relatively close, and benefit from mass-rolloff compensation just like CD horns do. They mount a standard bolt-on 1” driver.

    Have you thought about a nice two way? Maybe an Econowave? As pretty as the horn is, you will want to show it off. How about a bass cabinet with the horn sitting on top?

    This is what I was trying to drill into the young padawan's head but clearly he weren't listenin' t' me none.

    Actually that's what I'm shooting for. Are the drivers I linked too not the right ones?
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,132
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    Here is a pic of the horn used by Wayne, back in 2005 in a 3way design

    i6ygdiooojeo.jpg
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
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  • littlewoodboats
    littlewoodboats Posts: 823
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    Would something along the lines of a Jensen Imperial horn cabinet work for bass drivers? The Doc's 15's might work well in that application.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
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    An Imperial with the right woofer would be bitchen (I would opine).
    Plans are available, thanks to Pete Millett, at http://www.tubebooks.org/file_downloads/Jensen_spkr_plans.pdf

    An Onken cabinet could be dandy too -- I do get the opinion that he wants to keep it fairly simple, tho'.
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  • pkquat
    pkquat Posts: 742
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    I too would vote for an exposed horn, but I don't know what that does to the sound. Otherwise a nondescript box with an open front to show off the horn would be my low cost option. A beautiful woodgrain box would be the high cost option. @mhardy6647 's EV suggestion seams like a good match for a clssic sound and similar matching efficiencies. My novice knowledge though doesn't know how that big woofer can accurately reproduce the upper frequencies.

    I didn't see dimensions for the horn. IMO if you wan't to keep the overall size small, I would recommend a 8" woofer or possibly a 7". I think you will get a better sound in a smaller box, or more bass than larger driver in too small of a box. This should work well for smaller rooms. 8" drivers in a long or deep ported box can dig pretty deep. Its been a while, but I think peerless had some very good 8", and scanpeak had a few 7" and maybe 8 that were fast and could dig deep.

    What I don't know is how much these horns throw the sound. I have heard some horn combinations with a 10" or 12" woofer in a smaller box. The bass rolled off fast, but the woofer could handle some compensation. What did stand out is that they could fill a larger room with thump down to their roll off much more than a smaller 7-8" woofer.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
    edited May 2017
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    EndersShadow wrote: »
    ...


    Ok, I'm dumb here, but you mean the thing in the pictures (that I'm calling a horn, but maybe its not a horn lol)? If so, the answer is no not yet, but I'm working on it.


    Were those photos of the horns (which are beautiful) & their throats actually there before? I did not see them earlier today :blush:

    You don't happen to live anywhere near New England, do you? :)
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    ...


    Ok, I'm dumb here, but you mean the thing in the pictures (that I'm calling a horn, but maybe its not a horn lol)? If so, the answer is no not yet, but I'm working on it.


    Were those photos of the horns (which are beautiful) & their throats actually there before? I did not see them earlier today :blush:

    You don't happen to live anywhere near New England, do you? :)

    They were indeed there earlier today lol...
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,649
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    by5tbk8j5vdr.jpg
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  • littlewoodboats
    littlewoodboats Posts: 823
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    An Imperial with the right woofer would be bitchen (I would opine).
    Plans are available, thanks to Pete Millett, at http://www.tubebooks.org/file_downloads/Jensen_spkr_plans.pdf

    An Onken cabinet could be dandy too -- I do get the opinion that he wants to keep it fairly simple, tho'.

    I have the plans linked and have done the cad work for our panel cnc. If someone wanted to buy the plywood and pay shipping that would be the only cost. I can provide a tongue and groove kit that should be simple enough for a home builder.
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  • EndersShadow
    EndersShadow Posts: 17,528
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    Got anything smaller lol... My room is 10 x 14, if that. A 3 foot wide x 2 foot deep x 4 foot tall would take up darn near the entire room lol...
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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  • pkquat
    pkquat Posts: 742
    edited May 2017
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    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Here is a pic of the horn used by Wayne, back in 2005 in a 3way design

    WOW I missed this pic while I was typing. Lovely!!
    EndersShadow wrote: »
    Got anything smaller lol... My room is 10 x 14, if that. A 3 foot wide x 2 foot deep x 4 foot tall would take up darn near the entire room lol...

    What are the dimensions of the horn opening? Would the horns sitting on top of a floor standing cabinet roughly the size of RTA 8T or 11T be acceptable? Klipsch Heresy size? Smaller, more bookshelf size?
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,037
    edited May 2017
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    so -- here's a thought.
    Howzabout the venerable Eminence 12LTA twincone as a woofer?
    https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-beta-12lta-12-full-range-pa-driver--290-409

    7382425_800.jpg

    Inexpensive, sensitive & decent sounding. These will have plenty of output up to 1500 Hz (or even higher) to cross over to the horn and driver of interest.
    There's a cabinet design PDF on the PE page above; it looks -- like a weird choice to me (quite small, so F3 is pretty high.

    Years ago, during the 1990s fullrange driver craze, the late John Wyckoff built a pretty nice speaker kit (Hammer Dynamics Super 12) using the 12LTA augmented by a 'supertweeter' mounted (sort of) coaxially. The performance in a big vented box ('stuffed' with -- styrofoam peanuts!) was pretty darned good.

    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0600/super12.htm
    http://diyparadise.com/hammer.html

    Here's a guy using one with a Pass amp design :)
    https://www.passdiy.com/gallery/projects/184/reed-rehorst



    Here's a serving suggestion a little closer (perhaps!) to the intent of this thread:
    https://www.thomann.de/pics/bdb/141336/7382425_800.jpg

    This is interesting because it includes a so-called "H-frame" (open baffle) "sub"woofer.
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