Amp for RTiA7s

adrift02

Hey all -- I'm looking for a decent 200wpc amp for my RTiA7s. Ideally under $500 used. I was looking at various Parasound / B&Ks but not seeing anything in that price range. However, I may be able to get an older Carver M-400 -- would that be a good pairing? I may need to replace some parts, so that would end up costing ~$400 I'd guess when all is said and done. I'm looking for something warm/neutral like the Parasound/B&K, as I could see these sounding bad with a bad pairing.

Any advice is appreciated!

*FYI I'm running them on a Denon x3300 right now with an 80hz crossover (it has 5.1 preouts). It's ok for now, but the A7s definitely need a bit more juice.

gp4jesus

Would you consider a Hafler XL280? Would you consider 2?! 2nd in need of repair -
BOTH for $225 plus shipping? PayPal only please.

BTW closed on my "new" place week ago today so I'm tied up w/moving... 25-30 minutes drive between old & new. If you don't mind a bit of a wait...

Tony

adrift02

Sorry I don't want to invest in anything under 200wpc.

gp4jesus

I understand...

A page 2 bottom line: two XL280s in mono, will push 400 watts into 8 ohms, 600 watts into 4* ohms. They're stable into 1 ohm (560wpc) in stereo**, 2 ohms mono**.
* the 'A7 is 4 ohms below 125hz
** I wouldn't risk it

http://www.hafler.com/pdf/archive/XL-280_amp_man.pdf

My best in your quest, Tony

adrift02

Ok three questions on the XL280:
1) Is it on the warm side / will it pair well with the A7's mid/high emphasis
2) Will 180wpc be enough for the A7 if I want to run them Large (only about 12 feet away, but the room is wide and not the best acoustically)
2) what's wrong with the 2nd and how much would it cost to fix, do you think?

gp4jesus

adrift02 wrote: »

Ok three questions on the XL280:
1) Is it on the warm side / will it pair well with the A7's mid/high emphasis?

Yes!

adrift02 wrote: »

2) Will 180wpc be enough for the A7 if I want to run them Large (only about 12 feet away,

I'm inclined to say yes though frankly I never tried the 280 full range on my A7s. Please bear w/me.

Back in the late '80s, I paid a visit to a golden eared audiophile friend to do a sound comparison. He own large pair of electrostatics. He preferred the 280* over a previously owned Sumo. We A/B it* against my Belles 1, a warm-ish, but robust 100WPC. We agreed the 280 equalled it's bass & bettered it mids and above.

Finally I can say, full range* the Belles lifted my 7s off the ground in 15 X 17 room connected to a living room/kitchen/dining room open floor plan.
* no sub

adrift02 wrote: »

...not the best acoustically)

As in bright? Odd shape? Not important, just curious.

adrift02 wrote: »

3) What's wrong with the 2nd

one channel no output

adrift02 wrote: »

how much would it cost to fix, do you think?

Discovered over Christmas - no idea. Haven't had time to look into repair, &, as I mentioned previously, in the middle of moving.

At this point if you said "I'll keep looking" I'd understand. Shipping for two amps, one a glorified paper weight right now, $$$...

But the possibilities. 400+ watts dual mono. Stable into 2 ohms. Very few amps are stable below 4 ohms.

Tony

tonyb

Where are you located ?

mantis

I'm not sure why you think you need 200 watts per channel or where you came up with that number for a pair of Polk audio RTIA7 speakers.
Your Budget of $500 you should be able to find a wealth of great amps but I don't see any reason to restrict yourself at holding a standard of 200 watts.
It's not really the Watts that really make the difference it's current. You can have a 50 watt amp sound incredible and a 200 watt amp sound like ****.

I would strongly consider picking up one of the following used amps on the market.

B&K ST140. This amp is amazing and sound incredible. It will absolutely destroy your Denon internal amps for every possible reason. This would be my first choice with a $500 limit.
Rotel RB1070. Another incredibly awesome sounding amp that would show off those nice RTIA7 speakers. I love this amp and it has the ability to play anything you can throw at it.
NAD T series amps or anything from them over the years 2 channel. They are remarkable affordable and very strong under rated amps you should be able to score a killer 2 channel amp for a great price. Probably under your limit.

Goog luck

adrift02

Acoustically there are a number of problems. I'm set up at a right angle at the end of a long room that connects to the kitchen, so the right speaker is in a corner against a wall with a glass fireplace, and the other side is open. The other speaker is in front of a glass French door. My couch/listening area is against a wall and the speakers are only 1.5ft away from the other wall. Floor is wood/tile. It sounds noticeably worse than my carpeted condo and I don't have many options to do anything about it.

I misread the wpc (145, not 180), but may be interested in running two of these mono. Does the second one still run fine mono or does the dead channel output affect that?

Anyway, I'm not pulling the trigger on anything until after the 15th at the earliest (sounds like nether of us are in a big hurry), so I'll keep looking but am still considering these as an option -- I appreciate the info.

adrift02

I'm in the Seattle area.

200wpc was just a target -- I know lower wattage can be just as good (for example, receivers are crap regardless of the rating), but I don't know enough about this to really be able to say a 100wpc amp would be enough unless it was explained/proven to me. Also, I'm not looking to buy again for a while, so want to fully meet the A7's power needs -- hence the conservative minimum.

Thanks for the recs, Mantis, I'll look into those options.

cfrizz

Welcome to Club Polk Adrift02.

I always recommend 200wpc, just because for the most part that is the sweet spot where just about anyone can hear a clear and distinct improvement in the speakers that are being powered with that much.

The guys always want to toss in the amperage equation, but the plain fact of the matter is that all the product specs list the WPC, very few especially in the receiver specs do they list amperage. They also leave out the fact that the more speakers you add the less power is going to all the speakers.

You have the right idea, buy it once and move on to other improvements, and it is a piece of gear that can be kept throughout the whole process to power any speakers you have now and in the future.

This is a constant running debate on this subject here. But my feeling is that I would rather have and not need it rather than need it and not have it. It's nice knowing that any speakers I have, they are all being powered to their full potential. I'm just practical that way.

adrift02

Adding a couple options I found locally:
-B&K ST-202 for $400
-Hafler DH-500 for $375

Thoughts on those two? The Hafler seems to have a following, but a "warm" amp like a B&K sounds ideal for the type of sound I like (and how the A7s sound currently).

F1nut

The B&K

adrift02

Also tossing the B&K EX-442 into the mix ($400 shipped). It hasn't had anything replaced, but is in good condition. Haven't heard back re: the other B&K, and the EX-442 seems like a good option, though from what I've read the price is on the high side...

adrift02

So I pulled the trigger on that B&K EX-442. I think (hope) it's going to be a great match. Quick question re: volume:

--I currently cap my Denon X3300 at -20. I have pushed it to -10 for testing, but I'm pretty sure that was hitting hearing damage territory / 90-100dB. Given the receiver's rating (105 2ch, but weak amps I assume), do you guys think -10 is safe for the speakers? I always worry about clipping, regardless of whether I want to push -10 or not. For the record I've never heard distortion at that max, and this is all calibrated to whatever Denon's reference level is using Audyssey.

--Once I have the B&K I assume I can push -10 easily without risking clipping / damage to the speakers. However, what would you consider safe with ample power / an external amp like this that can push 200w a channel? Again, I honestly doubt I'd ever want to go beyond -10 unless I was outside, and definitely not past 0 for any reason, but just trying to get an idea of what you guys plan around.

Thanks for the info. Again, I know these are estimates and vary by setup. My phone reads ~80dB at -20 from my listening position if that's helpful.

cfrizz

Congrats on the purchase. Let's put it this way, your ears will give up before the amp does!

What you should notice is that you will have greater clarity and more bass across the board with both music and vocals.

This is the true benefit of having a powerful amp, having it be able to go louder is secondary to the benefit of everything else that will improve.

Your speakers will now have the power to operate to their full potential no matter where the volume knob is.

adrift02

la2vegas wrote: »

adrift02 wrote: »

Did I miss something? I thought you told @gp4jesus that you weren't going to pull the trigger on anything until the 15th at the earliest.

That was the plan until my tax return came through, lol. And based on what I've read, B&K / Parasound pair very well with these so just went for it.

gp4jesus

Congrats! May you have endless listening pleasure

adrift02

Hey all one more quick question. I moved my setup into a bigger room with space for 5.1 / surrounds. I was going to pick up a couple A1s or A3s (place them 90 degrees from head), but my buddy has a couple ceiling speakers he'll give and install for free (he's an electrician). They are Current Audio BCS65s. How much does matching matter for 5.1 surrounds? Should I go for that and save ~$400? He can get me anything wholesale...

txcoastal1

Surrounds not that important for HT systems IMHO

gp4jesus

Get the A3s. Mine are up high, just behind, and pointing towards the hot seat.

I started w/A1s. The 3s brought big improvements. Spacial & transpancy. And because they more easily dig deeper than the A1s they have more impact than the A1s.

I XO'd the 3s @ 80hz; the 1s seemed to prefer 100 - nevermind THX. Then again I demand more than some.

All channels should match, if you're striving for "immersive" HT. That is all speakers should be from the same brand/series. IME the newer Codecs demand more from the surrounds.

Tony

adrift02

Thanks, both. Just to toss this out there, my buddy also has Triad bronze in-wall 4 LCRs that he will give me + install if I want. I'm definitely on the fence because like Tony said I feel like matching matters, but just not sure if it's worth a $400+ dollar difference being that surrounds pretty much just handle random noises eh? I'd also probably want another amp for the A3s right? OR would the Denon's "95wps" be enough?

rpf65

The most important timbre match is the front 3.

The surrounds are for ambient sound, and not nearly as important. If you like the sound of the free speakers, get them.

adrift02

rpf65 wrote: »

The most important timbre match is the front 3.

The surrounds are for ambient sound, and not nearly as important. If you like the sound of the free speakers, get them.

Yeah... only issue is i can't demo until holes have been cut. And I think the in-wall Triads are out -- they are 4ohm and I dont want to buy another amp right now.

adrift02

Hey guys -- didn't want to create a new thread so asking here: when positioning speakers away from the front wall, do you measure from the woofer or back of speaker cabinet? I moved my entire setup to a bigger/better room, and if I measure from the woofer I'm 3' away, but more like 1.5' from the back of the cabinet. I need to do listening tests anyway once I get the amp tomorrow, so will mess around with distances, but from what I've read the RTi A7s like to be >2' out? At this stage, my setup forms an ~8' equilateral triangle with my LP ~38% away from the back wall (18x14' room), so hopefully this is ideal. Before I mounted the TV and shifted things back a bit (TV was too close), I had a 6' equilateral triangle going and it sounded decent. Anyway, not sure if these pics help but here's the new room.

F1nut

You measure from the back of the cabinet.

Judging by the room you definitely want to go with in wall or ceiling speakers. As mentioned it's mostly ambient sound, so timbre matching isn't a real concern.

adrift02

Thanks for response F1nut. My buddy should be able to install the Triad OmniChannel6 in-ceiling surrounds he gave me in a couple weeks.

I just received the B&K EX-442 amp yesterday. Only had a chance to test for 20 minutes, but so far it's sounding great. I still haven't turned it up past -10... I think I'm supposed to be able to safely hit "reference levels" (0db) with the amp, but it sort of freaks me out after being cautious for so long -- think I'd be ok to test at that level?

Also, I'm curious how you guys manage power amps with no standby and no pre-amp trigger -- my only option right now is to manually switch the rocker when I want to turn it off and on. Not a big deal for me, but my wife will be annoyed having to walk over and do that (everything is remote / voice activated right now). I'm also hesitant to leave it on all day/night. What are my options? I could see a remote power strip / surge protector working, but read it's usually a bad idea to plug a power amp into those as it dampens the dynamics. I heard there's mods for these too -- maybe that would be my best option (install a standby?).

gp4jesus

Furman MiniPort 15 or 20. Don't pay more than ~$60 shipped. You'll need a $5 relay to make it work. Check my sig - I have 4 MP-20s aiding in power distribution.

Tony

adrift02

gp4jesus wrote: »

Furman MiniPort 15 or 20. Don't pay more than ~$60 shipped. You'll need a $5 relay to make it work. Check my sig - I have 4 MP-20s aiding in power distribution.

Tony

Thanks! I can only find a MiniPort 20 for $65 shipped. Does this work via a trigger out?

gp4jesus

Yup, the "20" is my preference. Call Furman @ 1 (877) 486-4738, Pacific time zone, for connection details. They'll suggest a resistor* across two of the ports in front. Hope that* works for you.

That* didn't work w/my Outlaw 975 so I used DPDT relay instead, about $6/7 at an auto parts store. I'll try to remember to reply w/details tonight just in case.

Tony

F1nut

Just leave it on.