Tube integrated amp question

StevieB

If one was interested in trying out some tubes, would a middle of the road Jolida foot the bill? They seem to be priced very reasonably, not looking to spend a lot. I'm driving 3.1's with a parasound A23 and P5 and really don't crank it out anymore, rarely past about 9 o'clock. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Nightfall

Why not mate a tube preamp to your A23?

george daniel

I would go with a tubed pre,,, or a Rogue Cronos Magnum,,just my .02

StevieB

Nightfall wrote: »

Why not mate a tube preamp to your A23?

What are the advantages to a tubed pre? That dared looks nice.

Faustin

Started with a Dared SL2000 pre, mated with a ss Adcom with my SDA 1c's. Was happy but had to keep looking and listening. Bought a Yaqin MC 100b integrated amp and played with that for several months. It sounded good but in my opinion it did not have enough power to really open up the SDA's. Tried a Jolida integrated JD 1000 at 100w / channel and returned that after about 2 weeks. I really spent some time with it and tried to like it, but to my ears it was aweful. Currently have a Rogue Cronis Magnum II and am very happy with it. I continue to search, lust, and try things that are within my reach. My latest adventure is a Bottlehead Quickie tube pre-amp mated with the Adcom. This is a kit pre-amp that I built (no previous kit build experience) and I have to say, this little pre punches way above it's weight class, (at about $150.00.) This all being said, as previous members have stated, if you have a nice ss amp perhaps you may want to try a tube pre. That is a good combination for SDA's.......in my humble opinion.

mhardy6647

"finicky power tubes"

mmm -- nothin' finicky about single-ended, cathode-biased 2A3s.
You guys and your kinkless tetrodes.

Just sayin'.

heiney9

In general power tubes are a bit more finicky than signal tubes, especially as power increases. I have 2 integrated's one that runs(4) 6L6's and one the run (4) 6V6's, 30wpc and 16wpc respectively. And other than a bad 6L6 SED =C=, I have had zero issues. They don't get a lot if use, but they have been rock solid.

I think if one is looking to get into tubes a tubed pre and ss amp is the best combination. Allows you to roll tubes in the pre-amp with little fuss. The sonic benefits are off the charts plus it's fun to search and hunt down good deals on tubes.

H9

mhardy6647

In seriousness - I do agree.
I also think one loses much of the finesse of vacuum tube audio reproduction with the big hairy (and aformentioned) "KT" tubes. Actually, I feel that way, by and large about EL34s. They start to miss out on the flesh-and-blood recreation of musicians playing music, for me.

This being said, I give two classic amps a pass in this regard:

Marantz 8B (EL34 pp)
McIntosh MC225 (7591A pp)

The latter, like most Mac classic vacuum tube hardware, runs the tubes at such gentle operating points that they'll last forever to a good approximation.

EDIT: Yeah, there have been some fine sounding, and unprepossessing, pp 6V6 amplifiers over the decades. The 6V6 doesn't have big hifi cachet, and pp 6V6 is only good for about 10 watts, but they are "do no harm" output tubes.

Probably worth mentioning that the lowly 6AQ5 is the same darned tube as the 6V6 in a (much) smaller bottle. There is, if memory serves, slight de-rating due to the physical size, but otherwise they're the same. In other words, get 6V6 sound at a 6AQ5 discount price if you like!

Here's an example -- a little Canadian console amplifier -- nice sounding amplifier, again in that 10 wpc neighborhood. Note the price tag.

PP 6AQ5 console amp 021714 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

Irrenhaus

One of this if you can find it in the used market Cary AE-3

kharp1

I 3rd or 4th the tube pre suggestion. If you're wanting to experiment with tubes I'd go with a tube pre and SS amp. I'm not familiar with the A23, but, have been running the A21 for a couple of weeks mated to a tube pre and am enjoying what I'm hearing.

mhardy6647

Irrenhaus wrote: »

One of this if you can find it in the used market Cary AE-3

I would concur, FWIW -- I was intrigued by these back when they were available (AES being Cary's budget/kit brand name some years back*) -- even though there's some sort of silicon thing sitting up on top sharing pride of place with those two octal twin triodes

---

* They're no longer made, are they?

F1nut

Find yourself a Joule pre amp and call it a day.

tonyb

Nope.....I was looking for the DJH version of that AE-3 for awhile. Always been on my short list to try out and around 4-500 on the used markets is well worth the price of admission.

mhardy6647

Ironically enough -- at the moment, I am actually listening to a vacuum tube preamp & a soiled-state power amp, come to think of it.

pre:

013a by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

http://www.pmillett.com/hybrid_head.htm

power:

DSC_6922 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/174610/nelson-pass-amp-camp-amp-dual-mono-custom-built

Oh, this is the source, as I am typing this. Kinda tube-full.

DSC_0247 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

StevieB

Thanks for the heads up on trying the pre, makes sense. Totally tube illiterate, how many of those buggers do you actually need ? Some have 2 others have 4 or more, also some units appear to use smaller tubes?

mhardy6647

How many preamps, or how many tubes per preamp?

I assume the latter.

So -- it depends. Since some of the most popular small-signal triodes have two triodes inside one envelope ("twin triodes" - like the 6SN7, 12AU7, etc., etc.), you might have as few as one (or two). Depends on how many active stages the line-level preamp has. If single triode tubes (e.g., the 76) are used, the number of physical "tubes" (bottles, if you will) would double.

The power supply might use a vacuum tube rectifier (e.g., a 6CA4), or use solid state devices (e.g., a full-wave bridge silicon rectifier). So there's one more, maybe.

A stereo phono preamp (or tape head preamplifer) stage will typically add two twin triodes (two additional gain stages).

There are plenty of other reasons to use additional tubes, such as active loading of the signal tubes. I had (briefly) a pretty remarkable ADC branded preamp (designed by Mark Deneen) that had thirteen 6DJ8 twin triodes in it.

mhardy6647

Yeah, two different "major" flavors of tubes -- well, "modern" tubes

for the preamps and the typical tubes used therein -- typically either 9-pin miniature tubes or 8-pin octals.

For example, the 12AX7 is a pretty common high-mu (high-amplification) twin triode in a 9 pin miniature package. A 12AU7 is a similar twin triode (same pin configuration of the base) with lower "mu". Both are common preamp tubes.

Here is a 12AX7 (generic photo from teh webs):



A smiliar high-mu twin triode in an octal package is the 6SL7. and a 6SN7 is similar but with lower "mu".

Here is a 6SN7 (generic photo from teh webs):



All four of those are pretty darned common in preamplifiers.

mhardy6647

FWIW, here's a photo of that Mark Deneen designed ADC preamp that passed through here some years back -- sorry I hadn't dusted it when I took the photo!

Pc310022 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

WagnerRC

Great info here

StevieB

Anyone familiar with these guys? Small Massachusetts based company.
http://aricaudio.com/

heiney9

Good entry level stuff. Hand made. Be careful of resale, sometimes it's hard since they are not well known and if you pay retail, expect to loose about 40-50% when you go to sell to upgrade to the next tube piece.

Tubes are addictive and I guarantee you will fall down the rabbit hole .

The OD3 rectifier tube I am not that familiar with, but 12AX7/ECC83/5751 tubes are plentiful, but since they are the most popular, they are expensive and the really good 12AX7/ECC83 are really expensive. I do like tube rectified gear, they have an even better sound than tube gear w/silicon rectifiers.

Would be a solid choice, IMO. Buying new and then selling you will take a hit on depreciation.

H9

StevieB

heiney9 wrote: »

Good entry level stuff. Hand made. Be careful of resale, sometimes it's hard since they are not well known and if you pay retail, expect to loose about 40-50% when you go to sell to upgrade to the next tube piece.

Tubes are addictive and I guarantee you will fall down the rabbit hole .

The OD3 rectifier tube I am not that familiar with, but 12AX7/ECC83/5751 tubes are plentiful, but since they are the most popular, they are expensive and the really good 12AX7/ECC83 are really expensive. I do like tube rectified gear, they have an even better sound than tube gear w/silicon rectifiers.

Would be a solid choice, IMO. Buying new and then selling you will take a hit on depreciation.

H9

Ha, maybe I should rethink this whole tube thing. Thanks for the info.

heiney9

Why? Downsides is they can be finicky (although not all that often, really) and the glass bottles can be expensive if you decide to really explore tube rolling.

Tube rolling is one of the huge positives.

If you think you want to do it on the cheap, it can be done, but IMO and I think many others, you're only touching the surface as to what tubes can bring to the table.

Nothing wrong with gradually dipping your toes so to speak........

H9

heiney9

Expensive is a relative term.

A good set of American 12AX7's probably will run $75-100 a pair.

Some of the best 12AX7's will run $200-400 a pair. Many choices in between.

StevieB

heiney9 wrote: »

Expensive is a relative term.

A good set of American 12AX7's probably will run $75-100 a pair.

Some of the best 12AX7's will run $200-400 a pair. Many choices in between.

I was joking on the rethinking, I'm going to give it a shot. What is the typical life span of one these suckers?

halo

I will throw this out there as a recommendation for an integrated piece from Jolida, the Fusion 801.

I heard this integrated driving a pair of ELAC F6 speakers and it was very impressive. Plenty of power to fill a fairly large room with sound at high spl.

mhardy6647

heiney9 wrote: »

...The OD3 rectifier tube I am not that familiar with...

Since the subject came up , the 0D3 is a so-called "cold cathode" (mercury vapor) high-voltage regulator tube. In other words, its purpose is to ensure a stable power-supply output voltage. Thus the "0", there is no filament voltage for this type of tube (unlike the other ones we've been "discussing").

Also -- and not to sound defensive or anything -- but in a carefully-designed circuit, tubes aren't particularly finicky. The small signal (preamp) tubes by and large don't product much heat (because they do not dissipate much power) and should last for tens of thousands of hours. Power tubes and HV rectifiers dissipate much more power, run very hot, and are consequently much more sensitive to proper circuit "tuning" (operating points for the tube) and will have somewhat shorter lifespans. Still, audio tubes, by and large (even high-power ones) in a well-designed circuit should have thousands of hours of good-sounding life in them.

Some amplifiers do run tubes hard though -- and, in fairness, the health of power tubes (and their ability to "bias" properly) can fade over time. Some circuits require more or less occasional adjustment of bias; others ("auto-bias") don't.

Personally, I find transistors more finicky in the sense that they're much more sensitive to overloads, power surges, etc. Not to mention that they'll bite the dust pretty much instantly from the electromagnetic pulse when & if the nukes ever start flyin'. I'll be listening to my single-ended 2A3 amp* right up until the fireball swallows us up!

---

* Probably Bruce Cockburn's Last Night of the World

https://youtu.be/TjXttZzZP8I

PS The song, and the album from which it comes, sounds great on SE 2A3

michaeljhsda2

Great sounding amp that punches way above it's price point. Seller is in the Chicagoland area. He will not be able to take orders until tomorrow. He services what he sells. Remote control, 4 inputs, plenty of power to run SDA SRS 1.2 TL's. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer. http://www.ebay.com/itm/322387723820