Suitable for listening room?
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I understand the ceiling is difficult to treat, it turned out to be the 2nd to last thing on my completion project because of the pain (freaking studs are not in the right spots for easy hook insertion).
The ceiling acts as a completely untreated wall, if your concern is first reflections then you will need to address the ceiling, otherwise, you have energy that is untamed. Going through and correcting lateral walls for first reflections tightens your horizontal image, but with carpet on the floor and a bare ceiling, you are creating smear, pulling the stage upwards, pulling the vocalist to an inappropriate height.
To me, an untreated ceiling is like treating the right wall but not the left wall.
Yes, you can get away with it becuase itll give you a sense of sound stage height but in the end, it creates smear, problems, re-reproduction of treble, etc. For me, it is is of utmost importance (10/10), but I'm not by any means an expert, just well read and experienced.
Room acoustics is tough because not many actually read a legit source about it and most go by hearsay.... and sometimes, our listening biases play into the equation that is not readily measurable on any REW analysis (for example, we found that the best REW graphs we measured were not the best sounding).
Why?
Because we have listening biases AND we hear unlike microphones.
Microphones record SPL per unit time.
We hear in phons.
Phons = our hearing is dipped in the low bass and upper treble, with a penchant or increase acuity in the 4-5khz mark. Hence flat speakers tend to sound - horrible.
Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
...and its a compromise many will be happy to live with. Most rooms have a ceiling fan right where you would want to treat - its just not feasible. That ceiling fan also creates diffusion of those waves, somewhat treating that area.
I don't disagree that in a dedicated room its important, but in traditional rooms, where probably 95% of people have their main rig, the ceiling is just not an option. and its not going to be nearly as detrimental as the side walls. The floor is the easiest to treat so that is a bit of a non-issue in this discussion. If I were treating my ceilings, I think I would opt for diffusion over absorption. Luckily in my room, the ceiling does not come into account because of the roof line descending directly above the listening position.
FOr diffusion to work with any wall, you need to be atleast 8 feet away from ear level, which could cause a reflection of atleast 6ms or more. Any less and you have smear.
THat's my opinion and experience.
Unless your ceiling is 12 feet with a 1 foot ceiling drop, you'd be hard pressed.
Just my 2 cents.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
...and its a compromise many will be happy to live with. Most rooms have a ceiling fan right where you would want to treat - its just not feasible. That ceiling fan also creates diffusion of those waves, somewhat treating that area.
I remember that vividly, you discussed that with me when I visited your previous listening room. The ceiling fan above us.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
One problem you can run into in a room though is overdamping. In a room that small, that is a lot of energy to absorb. This can make the room sound dead and less like a live performance. Diffusion's purpose is to simply redirect that energy away from the listening position, thus eliminating the first reflection but keeping said energy in the room.
Exactly, but it has to be done appropriately, it's tough. First thing first, treat the reflections, anything is better than nothing. Then control SBIR, then ameliorate standing waves both on the X and Y axis. Any untreated wall is begging for something.
It's all a compromise.
And you know what, no matter what you do - it'll never be perfect.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
One problem you can run into in a room though is overdamping. In a room that small, that is a lot of energy to absorb. This can make the room sound dead and less like a live performance. Diffusion's purpose is to simply redirect that energy away from the listening position, thus eliminating the first reflection but keeping said energy in the room.
The key is not to control all non-direct waves, like I said. The trick is to tune it.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
One problem you can run into in a room though is overdamping. In a room that small, that is a lot of energy to absorb. This can make the room sound dead and less like a live performance. Diffusion's purpose is to simply redirect that energy away from the listening position, thus eliminating the first reflection but keeping said energy in the room.
The key is not to control all non-direct waves, like I said. The trick is to tune it.
Perhaps I don't understand your statement fully, but it sounds like you are contradicting what we are both saying. You want to control/redirect first reflection points. That is a non-direct wave. You don't tune these - you control them so you don't get the smear you talk of.
If you can elaborate on what you actually mean with that statement it would help me some.
Because of our listening bias, how we hear, what we want to hear, we tend to gravitate to certain aspects of the reproduced sound. If you want an extended lateral soundstage, sometimes that can be achieved when not all lateral reflections are absorbed, and sometimes diffusion might be in order.
With bass, sometimes we want more of a hit to the chest, the idea would not to absorb all SBIR related bass waves off the front wall, but to play with it so that it builds upon in phase direct waves to give you that feel.
All I'm trying to say is that while theory is nice, there's an art to it. Much like what we do.
Think of it as "synergy".
You cover the foundations, then you tweak it to your liking. The premise remains the same, control unwanted reflections, but not all reflections are bad.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
One problem you can run into in a room though is overdamping. In a room that small, that is a lot of energy to absorb. This can make the room sound dead and less like a live performance. Diffusion's purpose is to simply redirect that energy away from the listening position, thus eliminating the first reflection but keeping said energy in the room.
The key is not to control all non-direct waves, like I said. The trick is to tune it.
Perhaps I don't understand your statement fully, but it sounds like you are contradicting what we are both saying. You want to control/redirect first reflection points. That is a non-direct wave. You don't tune these - you control them so you don't get the smear you talk of.
If you can elaborate on what you actually mean with that statement it would help me some.
On another level, think of it this way - you say that you want to control all first reflection points but are liberal about leaving the ceiling untamed. You have zero control of that reflection point.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
Skip,
I might be confusing in my posts, I'm at work and posting as I go along.
Maybe the best way to say what I want to say is you want to control the reflection points, as you would want to control all non-direct waves.
Control is left up to individual room dimensions and to an extent, listening preferences.
Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
You are good brother. Diffusion if done correctly will have similar results as absorption without actually killing energy in the room.
I'm not saying don't treat the ceiling, but I am saying don't make it a priority due to compromising situations, the challenge of treating it, and general feel of a room. I thought long and hard in my old room about the ceiling and left it untreated due to all three of those considerations. It was a compromise, but one I don't feel was a massive detriment to my listening experience.
My bigger areas would be the walls, floor, the ceiling corners, and bass traps as needed.
Brother- the room is a beast.
It's been a very difficult thing to tame for me, which is why I am enjoying my sound immensely. I think I have a few more traps and diffusor panels to hang and position before I post pics here.
I just got lucky because my local best audio buddy is more into this than me so he formulates all the calculations and runs daily experiments to figure things out and relays the info to me. It's been a great experience to meet such as saavy audiophile who reads into theory rather than just learn from hearsay hearsay.
I have been humbled more than once.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
Hi Skip. I have found that a ceiling fan is actually worse (in my case) than a rounded flush mount. Whether the fan is moving or not, what I experienced is a reflection that was greater when the fan blades had a chance to reflect. I notice much less reflection when the fan is gone and the flush mount was installed. This was confirmed with the "height" test on a test CD I have.That ceiling fan also creates diffusion of those waves, somewhat treating that area.
Still, both not the optimal options for treatment.
Tom
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Anything within 6ms or less in reflection is bad, period. It causes smearing. The good reflections are those beyond that. HAAS effect takes precedence and allows you to localize it as a single non-smeared sound and it allows for depth localization.
A ceiling fan in the wrong place related to ear positioning will be detrimental if it causes smearing within the 6ms mark, however, if it is further down the room and your seating position places your ear approx 8ft away, especially if running in a circular motion, it might just work.
Might.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
This might help clear up some misconceptions about reflections and why I say you tune or play the room.
Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
My point about diffusion was that if it reflects those away from the listening space, then there is no first reflection to worry about anymore. My ceiling fan in my last room had a large dome for the light which should have been beneficial. My expectation is that even with a ceiling fan, the waves would still come at you, but many of them would be killed by being deflected either by the top or bottom of the blade. The time of the wave doesn't matter once it has been redirected away from the listening position. If the fan serves as just a closer reflection point that still directs the sound to the listening position, then you have issues you won't be able to resolve.
This is all geometry in the end.
Just to be clear, a ceiling fan likely acts as a diffractor rather than a diffusor.
A diffusor spreads frequencies evenly.
A diffractor can still concentrate a beam.
Hence @treitz3 results.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
I'm so lost right now, I'm just going to relax and enjoy!
Maybe a bourbon will help me understand?
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Man this has blown up. I need some beer and maybe I can catch up lol.2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius -
Lets see if it helps:
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Get a room._________________________________________________
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SOPAThank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman -
Wait up guys... I just finished work, I'm going home and grabbing a beer!Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound
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Upstatemax wrote: »
I'm so lost right now, I'm just going to relax and enjoy!
Maybe a bourbon will help me understand?
Dang it I thought I simplified it... I need to work on my communication skillzMagico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
I say we grab a couple of bottles of good Bourbon and head over Joey's house to discuss this further
2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge
HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD -
I say we grab a couple of bottles of good Bourbon and head over Joey's house to discuss this further
Alright come on over... I'll bust out the good stuff too
Whiskey for all!Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
Not a whiskey drinker here, but finally got around to grabbing that beer and listening to some tunes. Now to sort through this thread! Cheers polkies!
2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius -
And I've got some room treatment panels on the way thanks to Derek as well.2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius -
stangman67 wrote: »And I've got some room treatment panels on the way thanks to Derek as well.
Excellent. Let us know how you like them.Magico, JL, Emm, ARC Ref 10 line, ARC Ref 10 phono, VPI, Lyra, Boulder, AQ Wel, SRA Scuttle Rack, Bluesound -
Another setup technique I use when I can is to get the midwoofer at ear level or slightly above. I find the time alignment to be better with the tweeter in these cases as well as a smoother presentation.
This may help, nailed the bass perfectly. This is out of my focal owners manual.
Optimization
For perfectionist people, we will give an optimum positioning rule: If A is the determined distance between the floor and the middle of the two woofers (X), C is the distance between X and the side or back wall, then the distance B is found with the
equation B2 = AC.
• Example: The woofer center is at 50cm from the floor (A= 50cm). We decide that the distance between X and the side wall will be 72cm (C = 72cm), the loudspeaker will then have to be placed at 60cm from the back wall. B2= 50 x 72 = 3600 (fig.D). B = √3600 = 60cm.2 channel:
Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
Theater:
Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables. -
Interesting. I went up and did those measurements using the side wall as the known distance and my speakers are within 1cm of ideal distance off the back wall. Not too shabby!2 Channel in my home attic/bar/man cave
2 Channel Focal Kanta 3 I Modwright SWL9.0 Anniversary Pre I Modwright PH9.0X I Modwright KWA-150SE I VPI Prime Signature w/ Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC I Lumin U2 Mini I North Star Designs Intenso DAC I Audience OHNO ICs/Audience Furutech FP-S55N and FP-S032N Power Cables/Acoustic Zen Satori I Isotek Sirius -
I can't use that formula...it's European and I'm in the US.
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*snickers*~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Upstatemax wrote: »
You do sound quite hangry.
Haha. I actually am.
I'm at my Dads, I just hooked up his new cables and I'm left no choices for food.
Full meals. NO SNACKS!
Ohh well, I'll just drink the bourbon.
Music is good though, I'm calming down.
