Hi Sal

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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,624
    edited November 2017
    "violent agreement"? What the does that mean? I am not violent in any sense of the term. I agree with your understanding of the second law of thermodynamics, but I disagree with your application. That doesn't make me violent.

    First please explain "anti-antropy". If you Google this term is has nothing to do with thermodynamics.

    The equation is clear: the energy difference in transferring an object of mass "m" over a change of height "Δh" is: E = mgΔh

    The only practical variable here is Δh. Loading a truck changes the height about 30 feet (guess here by the picture of the truck). I am making an assumption here that the top of the mountain is on average flat. So the energy is required to load the truck is what it takes to lift the mass "m" 30 feet.

    Since the unloading point is down the mountain (and it's called a mountain in the article) the height difference is substantially larger. For a 300 foot mountain (which is small) the height difference in 10 times larger than the height difference in loading the truck. Sure, there's inefficiency losses here and there. But there is an order of magnitude potential difference in energy.

    The mass is only the load. There is energy required to move the empty truck up the mountain in which some of it is captured going back down due to regenerative breaking. This is at a net loss. Point is that the truck is much heavier going down compared to going up.

    There's no "free" energy being generated here. But when energy is transferred from one place to another and entropy is increased, then there is a potential to make it do work for us. That's what's going on. Moving the mass out of a quarry decreases entropy and would require a lot of energy from somewhere else (constant recharging from the grid or use a diesel truck).

    For your "hybrid" example... yes there is losses, but the point is that the energy from the Δh going down a hill doesn't need to be completely wasted as heat generated in conventional breaks. It can be transfered to somewhere else. The key term here is "completely". As you correctly put it, you can't claim 100%. Point is that you don't have to lose 100% to waste heat either.

    I am the violent one :) -- I do agree with you, but you miss the point! :) The mass (m) changes, too -- the truck goes up the hill empty, and comes down full. The mass added to the truck requires some kind of big piece of equipment to lift it up (above the dump truck's height) and drop it in. The energy associated with doing that didn't seem to be accounted for in the analysis of the truck's purported net generation of energy driving loads of stuff down the hill in its working day. Locally, at the truck, looks like more energy out than was put in. Globally -- not so much.

    There is no "anti-entropy"; thus the quotes. I was using a turn of phrase to provide a jocular/colloquial reference to reduction of entropy. Entropy can be reduced locally; you & I both know that. More violent agreement :)

    We're on the same page -- heck, we're green here (see that 5+ kW of PVs on my roof); stealin' heat from the sun...

    Your last paragraph could serve as a textbook example of "violent agreement". We both are saying the same thing, but spinning it differently. The old "glass half full, glass half empty" trope. It is worth saving as much energy as possible -- but don't expect miracles.

    On topic ;) the difference in spin, I'd opine, is at the root of the back-and-forth in this thread. Netting out the plusses and minuses of local (on a per-vehicle basis) vs. regional energy production for vehicles (i.e., using the grid for a fleet of vehicles) almost certainly favors the latter globally -- but there are clear dfferences of opinion about that here! :*

    Of course, there may be violent disagreement about that on this board! :/

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • ZLTFULZLTFUL Posts: 4,417
    F1nut wrote: »
    Do you read the stuff you link?

    From your link.
    Get ready for some crazy claims here.
    Like any battery breakthrough announcement, it should be taken with a grain of salt. Most of those announcements never result in any kind of commercialization.

    He only reads the parts that apply to his agenda...you know that agenda that he has claimed time and time again NOT to push but has admitted to pushing already several times in this and the previously mentioned closed thread.

    "I am not here to push an agenda...except my agenda!" Sal Cameli
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,624
    edited November 2017
    ahem -- Just to be really, really clear: and because I think that both Maximillian and I have published on thermodynamic topics in the peer-reviewed literature :)

    The only reason I ever brought this up was as an antidote to the tendency of so many folks in the "enlightened, tech-savvy 21st Century" to believe that one can get something from nothing because of their ignorance of very basic and well established physical principles. It is very sad -- because it can result in the separation of people and their money for no good reason :(


    Lasareath wrote: »
    Until you use Regenerative Braking. Then those laws are thrown out the window. Old technology that doesn’t work anymore because new tech killed it.

    ...
    That is absolutely and irrevocably untrue. Sorry.

    EDIT: PS, Maximillian, I do see (and concede) your point that delta(h) is probably, numerically, larger than delta(m) in the present case. Not to be confused with delta(H), of course! :)

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • headrottheadrott Posts: 5,247
    charley95 wrote: »
    I'm just glad we're not part of the Paris accord. We all know who the author of that one is.

    Paris Hilton?
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    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:

    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\

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  • maximillianmaximillian Posts: 2,052
  • agfrostagfrost Posts: 2,126
    What's Picard's beef?
    Jay
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,624
    I think it relates to my perception of thermodynamics :|
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 15,595
    And now for the comedic relief...

    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,624
    That's right. Thermodynamics is no laughing matter.

    :#
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 2,531
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    That's right. Thermodynamics is no laughing matter.

    :#

    Although pharmacodynamics can cause lots of laughter.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,624
    or pharmacokinetics, for that matter...

    om7o82g26ibp.png

    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 2,531
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    or pharmacokinetics, for that matter...


    Alright, now you're starting to sound like my ex-wife. :o :p
  • agfrostagfrost Posts: 2,126
    You're OK by me Doc.

    I think, in part, a misunderstanding of what you meant by "violent agreement" as well as your (apparently not as universally-recognized as I thought) enjoyment of turning a phrase (in this case, 'anti-entropy') seems to have run afoul of a desire for use of the vernacular of science.

    Maximillian, you're OK too, methinks. As Doc H has alluded to, it's probable that you two are just defining the problem (of the truck/ore, not thermodynamics) differently and that on balance you're more in agreement than not. Perhaps even violently so.

    I do wish that you would craft a response more informative than a dismissive video, though. For me, personally, I'd like to know what 'lens' you're viewing the problem through: From Acme Mining Co.'s? From the dump truck's? From the Universe's? Obviously, if we consider the work done by plate tectonics, which so graciously lifted all that ore to elevation, to be "free", that changes the balance sheet considerably compared to a Universal lens that includes work done by the planet as a debit.

    I suspect that some of the disagreement you're feeling has to do with viewing through different 'lenses'.

    But I could just be barking mad.

    Peace.
    Jay
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,624
    I think we've added an air of erudition to this thread ;)
    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • So guys, that's how thermodynamics works.
    ......... Guys ?

    GUYS !!!



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    It was BTU's that killed the beasts !

    Okay guys, you can get up now.

    ....... Guys ?
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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 29,044
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    I think we've added an air of erudition to this thread ;)

    Though I am not familiar with that terminology in Professor speak, if converted I'm guessing it means...B.S. :)

    ....and there's certainly an air of that in here. ;)
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 17,624
    This place has a ways to go vis-a-vis "Threads about nothing"...
    The "black paint" thread would be a great example, but it's about something. The metaphoric resonance of the black paint is practically Melvillian in its portent and intensity.

    (speaking of erudition...)

    audiokarma, bless its heart, is still probably the champ for "threads about nothing" (and I mean that as a compliment).

    The new(ish) kid on the block, www.hifihaven.org has potential, though.


    "It's like watching a roomful of people who couldn't get through college algebra discussing the flaws of quantum physics theory. I guess it could be fun, but it's ultimately a waste of time." -- seen on audiokarma

    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

    "Writing about hifi is like dancing about architecture" -- paraphrasing some wag (possibly Frank Zappa)
  • Thermodynamics for Dummies

    Regenerative breaking where one is mining on top of a mountain and carrying the load down the mountain can generate a certain amount of power.
    The empty truck going back up the hill doesn't produce any regenerative power .
    Power is consumed getting the lightened truck back up the mountain.

    Regenerative breaking where one is open pit mining and carrying the load UP
    0.6 miles to ground level doesn't occur.
    Larger amounts of power are consumed getting this fat loaded pig up to ground level than is regenerated with the lightened truck returning to the pit.

    .... as can be imagined from the Bingham Open Pit Mine in Utah

    g7xw33510r97.jpg


    I'm hopeful that I'll be able to complete my "Where Puppies Come From for Dummies" by this weekend. It's almost unbelievable !

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  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 6,737
    Sign me up when sedition starts.
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 2,531
    That neutral conductor should be moved farther away from that left bank of breakers.
  • Viking64Viking64 Posts: 2,531
    edited November 2017
    Viking64 wrote: »
    That neutral conductor should be moved farther away from that left bank of breakers.

    Hot dogs? Okay. Let me rephrase that last post: "That natural condiment should be mouthed closer to that last bun full of wieners."
  • lightman1lightman1 Posts: 9,441
    .....you need to identify the white wire as a current carrying conductor at the breaker. Cover the white jacket with black or red tape. Safety first.
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