RTI10 Midrange Speaker is getting too much low end and distorting.

jeripens

The midrange 6 1/2 woofer is distorting with too much low end, while the 7" woofers still have plenty of room left before distortion. I'm confused by the crossover frequency of [woofer/mid: 125Hz] on these. I'm using a Pioneer AVR pushing only 80 watts/channel but the distortion isn't from driving them too hard from a low-powered amp; I think it's simply when listening to bassy music the midrange driver crossover range is allowing too much bass to the midrange. When I do a frequency test, even at as low as 20Hz the midrange is extremely active. Any advice for still getting lots of low end from the woofers and limiting it from the midrange?

tonyb

You won't be able to separate the 2 out. What can be the problem is your power is very lacking. The RTI10's need some current behind them to sound decent and an 80 watter receiver isn't going to get you there.

That said, do you have the receiver set for full range with no processing engaged ? What source are you using for music ? What cables are you using ? Are the jumpers on the speaker posts secure and tight ? Everything plays a role in the final sound you'll hear.

tonyb

You can find A7's used anywhere fairly cheap. The rti 10's are bigger obviously but the 7's are no slouch either. The 7's are an 8 ohm speaker with less drivers, easier load for receivers.

A newer receiver may help a bit with the 10's, but you'll never get to their proper capabilities without an amp tied to their ankles. Just sayin'....

jeripens

Thanks again!

K_M

First, let us clarify something please.

When you say distorting, do you mean running out of cone travel, such as when a speaker is overloaded with too much bass, and it hits the end of its normal travel, or are you talking the sound, like when the sound becomes all crackly and distorted from an amp being over driven?

By your description, it appears you are describing a speaker being overloaded with too much bass. Is that correct?

You mention when you play 20Hz, the midrange speakers are very "Active" which sounds like they are simply being over driven.

From your original post, it seems the larger "Woofers" are not overdriven, nor is it distorting, and you seem to know the difference between amp distortion and overdriven bass.

This appears to simply be how the speakers were designed. The "Mids" are actually driven with no lower crossover, and they get the full range of bass, it is possible to overdrive them at higher levels with material that has large amounts of loud bass.

K_M

jeripens wrote: »

1. The midrange is in the same cabinet as the woofers, which isn't the greatest, right? Shouldn't it be in its own little sealed off section? 2. The crossover range of the midrange should be limited such that it's not receiving 125 hz and below, shouldn't it?
Again, thanks for your help. It's awesome to receive intelligent responses like that so quickly.

Yes, it is simply a design compromise, the mid receives the entire bass signal.

If only the so called mid driver is "Distorting" or maybe bottoming out, it is for sure not a power issue, but an issue of overdriving the speaker.

If the distortion is heard primarily in the treble and tweeter, as a crackly shattering type sound, the amp is being over driven.

Since it seems to be only the mid driver, and from your description it appears to be bottoming out.

mak99

@jeripens: I agree with all recommendations posted: add a quality sub + external power amp when any new receiver allows. That should get you to the next level of performance you're seeking.

I have the A7's myself and had to have both mids replaced, along with one crossover, under warranty. I suspect it was due to driving them a bit hard on occasion for the first 3+ years (that pesky Eagles Blu-ray concert at 0db or higher - oops!) via an Onkyo 805. Though in my situation I always used with a sub and crossover at 80Hz - but since others have mentioned the mid still sees the full signal, that probably explains my damaged mids.

I've since added three Emo monoblock amps (XPA-100's) for each of the front three speakers, along with replacing the Onkyo with a Marantz SR7007 (more HDMIs). The Emo amps really made the system come alive, the difference in sound quality was quite incredible since each amp is capable of a clean 250w each for the fronts. The separation between the speakers was also noticeable.

Note that my prior power amp upgrade was adding just a single Emo XPA-7 to drive all seven speakers when I still had the Onkyo. That was a huge improvement vs driving all speakers from the Onkyo. Later, adding the three XPA-100s dedicated for the fronts and having the XPA-7 just serve the four surrounds got me to an ever better level...

Keep ugrading as $$ allow!

jeripens

Thanks so much for your quick response. I'm with you on the power and I agree. My AVR has no preamp outputs for fronts and it's the one I'm stuck with for now. I'm big on both music and movies, so with music (and playing in stereo), I can choose between pure or processed audio. The mid driver tends to distort a little either way. Source is either computer output or Xbox One both with HDMI. Jumpers are secure and tight. I even tried removing jumpers and seeing what would happen if I (bi-amped) just the bottom woofers. Even then the midrange driver was moving like crazy.
So...I need a new AVR with preamp outs and a nice amp. It never ends.
2 thoughts about these speakers. 1. The midrange is in the same cabinet as the woofers, which isn't the greatest, right? Shouldn't it be in its own little sealed off section? 2. The crossover range of the midrange should be limited such that it's not receiving 125 hz and below, shouldn't it?
Again, thanks for your help. It's awesome to receive intelligent responses like that so quickly.

tonyb

Did you buy these used or have you had them for awhile ? Reason I ask is if you recently bought them used, who knows what the previous owner did as far as crossover components he may have replaced. You can pull them and see if everything is stock, or if a lose wire inside may be the culprit. To be honest though, that's too much speaker for what your driving them with.

Do both speakers portray the same problem or only one ? If only one, I'm more inclined to think the problem lies with the speaker. If both, I'm more inclined to think it's a power and cabling issue.

jeripens

Both speakers are the same. So probably a power issue.

jeripens

Just tried bi-amping them. A little louder. More bass. Same issue with midranges. I'll try to find a way to pre-amp them out to a real amp.

tonyb

Bi-amping with a receiver is going to give you next to nothing. Unfortunately you can't do a McGiver with that receiver to be able to add an amp. You either need a receiver with pre-outs + an amp, or sell the 10's for the RTIA7's which are easier to drive with what you have on hand.

jeripens

I really do appreciate your input. A couple things:
1. Those A7's are much more valuable than what mine would go for, right?
2. Why are they easier to drive?
3. If I could get ahold of a newer AVR like the Marantz SR7009 with 125 watts per channel do you think that'd fix my issues?

tonyb

No, a better receiver may help some, but you'll never realize the 10's potential until you put an amp on them.

The 7's have less drivers, are 8 ohm and more efficient to drive with lower powered receivers. Even still, the 7's sound better when a separate amp is used with them.

jeripens

What if I added a "bass blocker" capacitor to the midrange? I'm not sure about the specs of that midrange but I was thinking something like the pic I attached. Any adverse affects, you think? I'm thinking if it cut out some of the 0-125'ish hertz I'd be in luck.

jeripens

tonyb

The bass is distorting because of the power issue. Your receiver doesn't have the power to drive these speakers and thus distorts as the volume rises. Your looking for a cheap alternative to get around the power issue and I don't think you'll wind up with pleasing results.

My perspective is....whats the point of owning big speakers if you can't turn it up, unwind them from time to time. To do that, you need a separate amp with these speakers. There is no shortcut to properly powering speakers.....well unless you want to do damage to them and I don't see why anyone would do that on purpose.

My advice....get smaller speakers, or find a good used amp and a better receiver. May not be what you want to hear, but that's the only choices I see with the given information.

polrbehr

I agree with @tonyb on adding an amp. I own a pair of RTi10s and noticed a huge difference when going from a 125w Denon AVR to the addition of a 200w separate Adcom amp from the pre-outs.

dekuda

I would go a cheaper route at first and buy a higher output AVR with pre outs. I just picked up a Denon 3805 for $80.00. There are a ton of higher powered receivers out there for dirt cheap because they do not have hdmi. Then try it with the Rti10's. Then if needed you can always pick up a two channel amp to hook up to the pre's and drive the speakers. A good Denon, Marantz or Yamaha that you can get cheap will have more current than your Pioneer.

F1nut

I'm using a Pioneer AVR pushing only 80 watts/channel but the distortion isn't from driving them too hard from a low-powered amp

Yes it is.

or sell the 10's for the RTIA7's

No point in that as they are the same speaker in different style cabinets.


To the OP, unless you get a power amp you will have to set the 10's to small and use a sub to handle the bass. I use the RTiA7's in my HT rig, set to small with a sub and have never had the issue you speak of.

jeripens

You guys don't play around with answering questions! Thanks so much for the input! I'll let you guys know if I can ever get a newer receiver with preouts and a decent amp. Also, in regards to bi-amping and bi-wiring. I tried both. The bi-amping did result in much louder highs/mids. The tweeter was definitely ear-piercing with no change to the eq. With bi-wiring, I did notice a subtle difference in the same. The highs and mids were a little more bright and loud. I'm aware of all the arguments and back-and-forths with both these methods. I just wanted to share my experience. Again, thank so much for the input.

mdaudioguy

tonyb wrote: »

No, a better receiver may help some, but you'll never realize the 10's potential until you put an amp on them.

The 7's have less drivers, are 8 ohm and more efficient to drive with lower powered receivers. Even still, the 7's sound better when a separate amp is used with them.

You're confusing your Polk speakers... RTiA7 are the improved version of the RTi10, but have the same driver complement and specifications.

tonyb

Your correct, my brain has the 12's stuck in there for some reason. I still believe the 7's are easier to drive than the 10's.

jeripens

Thanks K_M! You got it exactly right. My receiver is not causing the distortion, as I'm not over-driving it at all; and distortion might not be the correct term, though it applies. Excessive speaker excursion might be more like it. The midrange woofer is the only one "distorting" and it's due to an overload of low-frequency sound being sent it by the lack of sufficient filtering crossover. Even at lower volume with particularly bassy music the midrange drivers bottom out while the two woofers still have plenty of room to go. The tweeter never distorts, nor do the woofers. And both midranges do it, not just one. This isn't a blown driver. I don't understand the crossover structure on these speakers in regards to sending the midrange driver the same low frequency sound as the woofers. Why not have crossed the midrange over at 80hz or 100hz? I'm going to try a 4ohm 100hz low pass crossover on just those midranges and see if that helps. (I think they're 4 ohm.) While I can't disagree more power would be good, I'm not able to provide that at this point and am hoping this might work. I feel I still have plenty of headroom with my receiver/speaker combination before amp-level distortion occurs at all. I'm going to give this a try and see what happens. Thanks again for your insight and help.

polrbehr

I've had a pair of RTi10s for about 7 years now, and while they are primarily used for HT, I have on several occasions let them "off their leash" for concert DVDs and some 2 channel listening. But I never had the issue you speak of.

Can you provide some info on exactly what you're listening to, and at what volume levels? (exact db levels if possible, not just "about 11 o'clock" on the dial). I'm really curious as to why yours distort that way.

jeripens

polrbehr, I'll get you a list and some numbers soon. Thanks for responding. I'm also gonna try and get a video of the movement and post somewhere.

K_M

jeripens wrote: »

polrbehr, I'll get you a list and some numbers soon. Thanks for responding. I'm also gonna try and get a video of the movement and post somewhere.

Hey to expound on what "polrbehr" asked, does all music do this, or is it only particular tracks?

Is it only tracks that are very bass heavy, or ones that have very deep loud bass?

Perhaps as he asked, if you could even name some particular songs that cause the overdriving of the 6.5" driver also!

F1nut

No video needed, we all know what an overdriven driver looks and sounds like. In addition to the questions asked, where are your tone controls set? The -3dB limit is 35Hz, hardly bass monsters, so why aren't you using a sub since you seem to want heavy bass?

polrbehr

jeripens wrote: »

polrbehr, I'll get you a list and some numbers soon. Thanks for responding. I'm also gonna try and get a video of the movement and post somewhere.

I am somewhat interested in seeing if I can replicate the conditions that cause these
problems with yours. Naturally, I will not risk damage to my speakers, but I know what mine are capable of with different types of music. They can play pretty loud without distortion, to the point that it becomes difficult to sit in the room for more than a few minutes, though that may be attributable to their "bright" tendencies? LOL

jeripens

polrbehr wrote: »

Can you provide some info on exactly what you're listening to, and at what volume levels? (exact db levels if possible, not just "about 11 o'clock" on the dial). I'm really curious as to why yours distort that way.

I am trying to edge up close to 0.0dB on my receiver. I am getting somewhere between - 4.0dB to -2.0dB when distortion begins. I am listening to bass-heavy tracks such as:
Grace Potter-Instigators, Jason Derulo-Get Ugly, David Guetta-Hey Mama. I like bass-heavy dubstep type stuff as well. (How's that for refined listening tastes?) I also listen to all kinds of other stuff, but those are the more bassy ones.

I love listening to music in stereo with no subwoofer. I'm aware of the advantages of a good sub as far as getting the sound I want, but these speakers seem so capable of getting very close to where I want to be in that regard without my sub active. The bass they put out is so clean and pure sounding.

F1nut wrote: »

The -3dB limit is 35Hz, hardly bass monsters, so why aren't you using a sub since you seem to want heavy bass?

I don't know what that means. My EQ at 63hz & 125hz are set to 0.0 right now but I'd like to edge them up a bit. I might be asking more from these speakers than they can give (with my current amp setup) but I am so darn close to the perfect sound I'd like without a sub or new amp.

polrbehr wrote: »

I am somewhat interested in seeing if I can replicate the conditions that cause these
problems with yours. Naturally, I will not risk damage to my speakers, but I know what mine are capable of with different types of music. They can play pretty loud without distortion, to the point that it becomes difficult to sit in the room for more than a few minutes, though that may be attributable to their "bright" tendencies? LOL

That'd be cool. Maybe it's my auto MCACC Calibration buy I haven't noticed the bright sound many people attribute to these speakers.

K_M wrote: »

Hey to expound on what "polrbehr" asked, does all music do this, or is it only particular tracks?

Is it only tracks that are very bass heavy, or ones that have very deep loud bass?

Perhaps as he asked, if you could even name some particular songs that cause the overdriving of the 6.5" driver also!

I listed some tracks above. And it's really bad on heavy and loud bass tracks.
But, here's a great example. When performing any low-frequency tests like the kinds that can be found on youtube, beginning at around 20hz and going up from there, that's also when I see tremendous movement in the 20hz to let's say 80hz range in the midrange driver, while the lower woofers aren't moving very much and have so much more room to move. It just feels like the midrange driver is a weak-point of the RTi10's as far as the type of music I'd like to listen to loudly and with much bass.

Again, thanks so much for any interest in or comments on this thread. It's really cool that so many people are interested in this stuff and take the time to share expertise and experience. I'm obviously an amateur and excited to learn and grow.

polrbehr

I had a feeling you would list artists and tracks I have never heard of... lol
I have a demo CD that came with Ayon CD players (IIRC?), that has some pretty heavy bass tracks so I'll give that a shot?

But seriously, if you are getting near 0db, I think you are asking/expecting way too much from your AVR and speakers. I could tolerate -10db on my older 100wpc Denon AVR, maybe down to -6db for one song or so, but anything past that was just
not enjoyable for me. And I am talking about some pretty heavy R&R stuff, not lots of bass per se, but certainly powerful in its own right.

pearsall001

Add a quality sub, set speakers to small, xo at 80. It will take the load off the AVR & make all the difference in the world.