Tesla Model III

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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,098
    edited April 2016
    Remember the Toyota PR campaign where they used a Tundra to pull a Space Shuttle?

    2012-toyota-tundra-towing-endeavour-left-side.jpg

    Nissan's golden opportunity -- maybe a Leaf pullin' a Boeing 787 Dreamliner (fire extinguishers close by, just in case one of them there lithium ion batteries decides to melt down)... or maybe a Leaf pullin' the Brits' pride and joy, Boaty McBoatface, when she launches.

    PS I have (als) tried urgin' Mrs H to consider a used Lexus hybrid SUV when her Escape gives up the (NiCd) ghost (or rusts away, whichever comes first, and it might be close!).

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  • Kurt300Kurt300 Posts: 266
    edited April 2016
    I reserved before the presentation, and am following the news with great interest.

    I consider this Tesla's "Friends and Family" sale. :)

    Will probably keep my new Boxster, but make the Tesla the daily driver for less than perfect weather.

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  • scubalabscubalab Posts: 1,932
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    PS I have (als) tried urgin' Mrs H to consider a used Lexus hybrid SUV when her Escape gives up the (NiCd) ghost (or rusts away, whichever comes first, and it might be close!).

    That's what we did... my wife drives a used Lexus RX-450h. Fit & finish is top notch! However, the hybrid part of it is kind of a gimmick. We gained maybe 5-6 mpg with the hybrid. Additionally, we are supposed to (and do) run premium fuel, so the savings on the added mpg is spent on the premium fuel!

    Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my wife's car. It is a luxury vehicle in every way - it's super quiet, and it's very comfortable. However, the hybrid part of it was just a bonus. It is a little sluggish on the start unless you really press the gas and force the IC engine to kick in. THEN it's got some go! The quiet part is great too. It's very easy (although it can be dangerous) to sneak up on people!

    We were getting 26-27 mpg (not bad for an AWD SUV), but with the new tires and winter fuel mix, we're now only getting 23-24 mpg. I think Lexus' regular gas engine RX gets 19-20 mpg combined... How much better does the Ford Escape hybrid do vs a gas Escape.

    Now that Tesla? It's a nice looking EV, but yeah, there are the limitations already mentioned...
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,098
    edited April 2016
    I don't remember any more -- hers is an '06. Probably similar, percent-wise, in incremental economy to the above mentioned Lexus hSUV, I reckon.

    Hers gets anywhere from about 29 mpg average in bitter cold winter weather to about 35 in warm/hot weather. Incrementally better in stop & go; hybrids love traffic jams!

    I drove hers to the Post Office today -- her running average is sitting on 30.6 mpg right now. With over 240,000 miles on it, she's actually saved the extra cost of the hybrid vs. a pure-gasoline 4 cyl Escape 4WD (did they even sell the 4 cyl with 4WD?) in gasoline savings (believe it or not)! :- ) She loves it -- to the point that it will have to die before she gets rid of it, I suspect. I just hope it doesn't strand her somewhere inconvenient when/if it does.

    A premium fuel hybrid does seem sort of oxymoronic, isn't it?! OK from an environmental perspective, but no bargain in terms of cost per mile to drive, eh? :-/

    We've also been (sort of) looking at the new hybrid RAV4 -- guess I should look a little closer at its fuel requirement(?) It's ostensibly based on the Luxus 4WD hybrid drivetrain (although I don't know about the IC engine part of the hybrid powertrain).

    Sorry for the hybrid hijack! :-|
    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,628
    Mark, I'd forego the luxury hybrid, too much coin in upkeep. Give the woman what she wants and enjoys.

    Cars in general, electric or gas, are some of the worst investments to make simply because of depreciation. I'd much rather have a 3 year old gas car than a new electric Tesla. I maintain those who drive electric aren't about saving money, more so making a statement.

    Any decent 3 year old gas sipper can be had in the mid 20k area, as opposed to the 45k for a Tesla with some options. 2OK difference can buy a lot of gas. 200 a month for 100 months, that's over 8 years to wash it out. Most don't keep their cars that long, I do though....but I'm not the norm.

    You can also look at the difference in price as paying for all that gas up front instead of month to month like you'd normally do. That means there is a lot of money not working on your behalf. Think about that.
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  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,098
    She buys her own autos; I just... like to kibitz ;- )

    Well, actually, Ford is s'posed to be re-introducing the Escape Hybrid in 2017 (I think it is)... the '06, though, ain't a-gonna make it to '17, I don't think.
    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

  • NightfallNightfall Posts: 6,948
    edited April 2016
    The Tundra pulling that 300,000 pound space shuttle, even if for only a block, is pretty impressive for what is only considered a 1/2 ton.
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  • Strong BadStrong Bad Posts: 4,152
    For me, the Tesla makes a lot of sense as a daily driver. My commute to work is 44 miles a day round trip. I could almost make it all week back and forth to work on a single charge. I think it makes a great travel vehicle as well, if you have the extra time in there to stop for charges. A regular gasoline car, there's the convenience of much less stops and time spent at those stops for fueling. Then again, it's money out of the wallet. Is the time spent waiting to charge during longer trips worth the money in your wallet. For some people yes, for some no. Then we have varying requirements as well such as the mentioned towing. It's not for everyone right now, but someday it might be.

    These recent low gas prices are nothing but a tease. They will go back up! OPEC is succeeding at beating Russia's oil industry into submission as well as the USA's domestic production. When they think we've both had enough, they'll start dropping back production so prices skyrocket again and they make gazillions more. Sorry, I hate the thought of those Middle East bozos holding that much say and power over the worlds energy.

    The electric car industry needs time to evolve. The technology and everything about it will continue to improve. Tesla is still in its infancy. Wait till their first Gigafactory opens. Practically every square inch of the roof will be covered with solar panels, generating enough power everyday for the entire building.

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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,628
    Strong Bad wrote: »
    For me, the Tesla makes a lot of sense as a daily driver. My commute to work is 44 miles a day round trip. I could almost make it all week back and forth to work on a single charge. I think it makes a great travel vehicle as well, if you have the extra time in there to stop for charges. A regular gasoline car, there's the convenience of much less stops and time spent at those stops for fueling. Then again, it's money out of the wallet. Is the time spent waiting to charge during longer trips worth the money in your wallet. For some people yes, for some no. Then we have varying requirements as well such as the mentioned towing. It's not for everyone right now, but someday it might be.

    These recent low gas prices are nothing but a tease. They will go back up! OPEC is succeeding at beating Russia's oil industry into submission as well as the USA's domestic production. When they think we've both had enough, they'll start dropping back production so prices skyrocket again and they make gazillions more. Sorry, I hate the thought of those Middle East bozos holding that much say and power over the worlds energy.

    The electric car industry needs time to evolve. The technology and everything about it will continue to improve. Tesla is still in its infancy. Wait till their first Gigafactory opens. Practically every square inch of the roof will be covered with solar panels, generating enough power everyday for the entire building.

    k18b04razvsd.jpg

    Good points, but a tad on the naïve side. Electricity is a regulated commodity just like fossil fuels. Only difference is you have more Bozos involved with gasoline/oil. We have our own Bozos in charge of electricity and if you think for one second electricity will remain free or cheap your fooling yourself. Just like if you think oil will remain cheap.

    Of course if you don't like the foreign Bozos having sway, you can retreat from the free market and simply use our own. Open up more drilling fields, etc. You won't find too many promoting that. It's more so a wanting of your cake and eating it too scenario. Good and bad sides with everything.

    Oil isn't just for gasoline, it has many uses in many products we use everyday. Electricity and solar are fine niche market solutions for those that can use them, but they will never replace oil and it's versatility.
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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,628
    Plus, and it's not Tesla's fault, Nevada gave them a 1.25 billion dollar 20 year assistance package that includes a near zero tax liability for the first 10 years. Exactly the kind of stuff that pisses people off.

    So the first 10 years, Nevada is actually paying them, and they pay next to nothing. That means the taxpayers in Nevada are actually paying Tesla for 10 years. Yeah, sounds fair to me.

    Sure, they'll create jobs, but the people will have to pay for those jobs and the money the state gets out of those paychecks I doubt will equal the amount given over 20 years. This is how my state got so broke, one of the ways anyway.
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  • motorhead43026motorhead43026 Posts: 2,189
    tonyb wrote: »
    Plus, and it's not Tesla's fault, Nevada gave them a 1.25 billion dollar 20 year assistance package that includes a near zero tax liability for the first 10 years. Exactly the kind of stuff that pisses people off.

    So the first 10 years, Nevada is actually paying them, and they pay next to nothing. That means the taxpayers in Nevada are actually paying Tesla for 10 years. Yeah, sounds fair to me.

    Sure, they'll create jobs, but the people will have to pay for those jobs and the money the state gets out of those paychecks I doubt will equal the amount given over 20 years. This is how my state got so broke, one of the ways anyway.



    This is the way business is done anymore. Tax incentives to Corporations are leading a race, to the bottom.



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  • notifiednotified Posts: 175
    edited April 2016
    Tonyb -For some there is a environmental factor to consider, While true major advancements are still in their infancy,But give thanks to progressivism or the hope for the future would most assuredly be bleak.What we sow today so shall we reap tomorrow, And I for one subscribe in Plato's reincarnation theory.True oil is a versatile commodity, and due in part to economic benefits we may never be completely free of its need. But there are and will continue to be alternatives,and advancements may eventually prove to be economically viable as well as environmentally sound
  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,628
    edited April 2016
    There is no environmental factor, if we got rid of every gasoline vehicle and all drove electric cars, it wouldn't change one thing......except who pockets what coin.

    I'm all for advancements in technology, but ones that make a real difference, not emotional ones. Progressivism is another word for communism, you won't find me giving any thanks in that regard. Here's a better description of what you subscribe to.

    "Under Progressivism, it is imperative to gradually destroy the middle-class in a society because the middle-class does not benefit under Socialism, Fascism, or Communism. This must be accomplished over many decades with clever marketing and emotional arguments “to help the poor and the children” promoted by the elite, the government, and a willing media system.

    Progressivism utilizes all of the tenants of the ideology to move a society on a planned long-term direction from a Constitutional Democratic Republic form of governance to one of Socialism and then to Communism. It incorporates features of Fascism to allow an ever growing nouveau elite group of politically-connected insiders to rise to prominence and power by promoting wealth redistribution and entitlement schemes “for the people” through cultural institutions, the arts, lower and higher academic institutions, “non-profit” public advocacy organizations, private elite advisory organizations and policy “think-tanks”, global quasi-government organizations, government legislation, and finally legal court precedents. Its effect is the same; effectively transferring wealth and power from those who have earned it through hard work and honesty to those who have neither quality."

    Sound familiar ? Look around you today, tell me that's not exactly whats happening.


    I'm for common sense, not social engineering that benefits the rich or causes that make you feel good without any real tangible benefits....and being a good steward of the planet doesn't mean we have to go to extremes either.

    With the hundred of billions already poured into the niche markets of alternative energies, I believe a more tangible benefit would be had if it was re-directed towards schools and infrastructure. Least until someone comes up with a real source of alternative energy.

    I also realize it takes baby steps, small innovations lead to bigger ones. All fine and dandy, but we can't ignore the needs of today.
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  • Kurt300Kurt300 Posts: 266
    tonyb wrote: »
    There is no environmental factor, if we got rid of every gasoline vehicle and all drove electric cars, it wouldn't change one thing......except who pockets what coin.

    I'm all for advancements in technology, but ones that make a real difference, not emotional ones. Progressivism is another word for communism, you won't find me giving any thanks in that regard. Here's a better description of what you subscribe to.

    "Under Progressivism, it is imperative to gradually destroy the middle-class in a society because the middle-class does not benefit under Socialism, Fascism, or Communism. This must be accomplished over many decades with clever marketing and emotional arguments “to help the poor and the children” promoted by the elite, the government, and a willing media system.

    Progressivism utilizes all of the tenants of the ideology to move a society on a planned long-term direction from a Constitutional Democratic Republic form of governance to one of Socialism and then to Communism. It incorporates features of Fascism to allow an ever growing nouveau elite group of politically-connected insiders to rise to prominence and power by promoting wealth redistribution and entitlement schemes “for the people” through cultural institutions, the arts, lower and higher academic institutions, “non-profit” public advocacy organizations, private elite advisory organizations and policy “think-tanks”, global quasi-government organizations, government legislation, and finally legal court precedents. Its effect is the same; effectively transferring wealth and power from those who have earned it through hard work and honesty to those who have neither quality."

    Sound familiar ? Look around you today, tell me that's not exactly whats happening.


    I'm for common sense, not social engineering that benefits the rich or causes that make you feel good without any real tangible benefits....and being a good steward of the planet doesn't mean we have to go to extremes either.

    With the hundred of billions already poured into the niche markets of alternative energies, I believe a more tangible benefit would be had if it was re-directed towards schools and infrastructure. Least until someone comes up with a real source of alternative energy.

    I also realize it takes baby steps, small innovations lead to bigger ones. All fine and dandy, but we can't ignore the needs of today.

    "Lighten up, Francis." :)

    But seriously, I disagree with every point you make, above, Tony. And drawing a political caricature of someone's beliefs before belittling them may be easy to do, but it seems beneath you, sir.

    Can we talk about the car? I think the autopilot, anticipated long-term operating costs, power, and Tesla's commitment to future upgrades for its existing models after sales are compelling reasons to buy it.

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  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 38,154
    Another that looks at the pretty lights.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • Moose68BashMoose68Bash Posts: 3,442
    tonyb wrote: »
    There is no environmental factor, if we got rid of every gasoline vehicle and all drove electric cars, it wouldn't change one thing......except who pockets what coin.

    I'm all for advancements in technology, but ones that make a real difference, not emotional ones. Progressivism is another word for communism, you won't find me giving any thanks in that regard. Here's a better description of what you subscribe to.

    "Under Progressivism, it is imperative to gradually destroy the middle-class in a society because the middle-class does not benefit under Socialism, Fascism, or Communism. This must be accomplished over many decades with clever marketing and emotional arguments “to help the poor and the children” promoted by the elite, the government, and a willing media system.

    Progressivism utilizes all of the tenants of the ideology to move a society on a planned long-term direction from a Constitutional Democratic Republic form of governance to one of Socialism and then to Communism. It incorporates features of Fascism to allow an ever growing nouveau elite group of politically-connected insiders to rise to prominence and power by promoting wealth redistribution and entitlement schemes “for the people” through cultural institutions, the arts, lower and higher academic institutions, “non-profit” public advocacy organizations, private elite advisory organizations and policy “think-tanks”, global quasi-government organizations, government legislation, and finally legal court precedents. Its effect is the same; effectively transferring wealth and power from those who have earned it through hard work and honesty to those who have neither quality."

    Sound familiar ? Look around you today, tell me that's not exactly whats happening.


    I'm for common sense, not social engineering that benefits the rich or causes that make you feel good without any real tangible benefits....and being a good steward of the planet doesn't mean we have to go to extremes either.

    With the hundred of billions already poured into the niche markets of alternative energies, I believe a more tangible benefit would be had if it was re-directed towards schools and infrastructure. Least until someone comes up with a real source of alternative energy.

    I also realize it takes baby steps, small innovations lead to bigger ones. All fine and dandy, but we can't ignore the needs of today.

    @tonyb,

    I'm with you.
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  • NightfallNightfall Posts: 6,948
    tonyb wrote: »
    they will never replace oil and it's versatility.

    Someday they will have to.
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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,628
    Kurt300 wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    There is no environmental factor, if we got rid of every gasoline vehicle and all drove electric cars, it wouldn't change one thing......except who pockets what coin.

    I'm all for advancements in technology, but ones that make a real difference, not emotional ones. Progressivism is another word for communism, you won't find me giving any thanks in that regard. Here's a better description of what you subscribe to.

    "Under Progressivism, it is imperative to gradually destroy the middle-class in a society because the middle-class does not benefit under Socialism, Fascism, or Communism. This must be accomplished over many decades with clever marketing and emotional arguments “to help the poor and the children” promoted by the elite, the government, and a willing media system.

    Progressivism utilizes all of the tenants of the ideology to move a society on a planned long-term direction from a Constitutional Democratic Republic form of governance to one of Socialism and then to Communism. It incorporates features of Fascism to allow an ever growing nouveau elite group of politically-connected insiders to rise to prominence and power by promoting wealth redistribution and entitlement schemes “for the people” through cultural institutions, the arts, lower and higher academic institutions, “non-profit” public advocacy organizations, private elite advisory organizations and policy “think-tanks”, global quasi-government organizations, government legislation, and finally legal court precedents. Its effect is the same; effectively transferring wealth and power from those who have earned it through hard work and honesty to those who have neither quality."

    Sound familiar ? Look around you today, tell me that's not exactly whats happening.


    I'm for common sense, not social engineering that benefits the rich or causes that make you feel good without any real tangible benefits....and being a good steward of the planet doesn't mean we have to go to extremes either.

    With the hundred of billions already poured into the niche markets of alternative energies, I believe a more tangible benefit would be had if it was re-directed towards schools and infrastructure. Least until someone comes up with a real source of alternative energy.

    I also realize it takes baby steps, small innovations lead to bigger ones. All fine and dandy, but we can't ignore the needs of today.

    "Lighten up, Francis." :)

    But seriously, I disagree with every point you make, above, Tony. And drawing a political caricature of someone's beliefs before belittling them may be easy to do, but it seems beneath you, sir.

    Can we talk about the car? I think the autopilot, anticipated long-term operating costs, power, and Tesla's commitment to future upgrades for its existing models after sales are compelling reasons to buy it.

    My comments were aimed at Notified, not you Kurt. I didn't bring up the wonders of progressivism and letting that go unchecked is not beneath me.

    But lets talk about the car and things that compel you to buy it. Reliability ? Doesn't anyone dropping that kind of coin want to wait and see, or does that not matter to anyone ? Fit and finish ? The 200+ range ? Upkeep ?The price ?

    Seems to be Tesla is fishing with a shiny lure and flashy electronics, the same things we all criticize cheap Chinese audio for.
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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,628
    Nightfall wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    they will never replace oil and it's versatility.

    Someday they will have to.

    Your right, and that's when something new will hit, but that day is a looong way off.
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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,628
    tonyb wrote: »
    Plus, and it's not Tesla's fault, Nevada gave them a 1.25 billion dollar 20 year assistance package that includes a near zero tax liability for the first 10 years. Exactly the kind of stuff that pisses people off.

    So the first 10 years, Nevada is actually paying them, and they pay next to nothing. That means the taxpayers in Nevada are actually paying Tesla for 10 years. Yeah, sounds fair to me.

    Sure, they'll create jobs, but the people will have to pay for those jobs and the money the state gets out of those paychecks I doubt will equal the amount given over 20 years. This is how my state got so broke, one of the ways anyway.



    This is the way business is done anymore. Tax incentives to Corporations are leading a race, to the bottom.

    Tax incentives to already prosperous corporations, I agree. That's how CEO's can justify their huge salaries. We all complain about it, year over year, decade over decade, nothing changes. All from the so called "qualified" representatives and others running the show.

    Do those tax incentives ever equate to a raise in wages ? Hardly, stagnant for the last 20 years, but who's wages have risen tremendously ? CEO's....corporate executives ? Who's benefits get cut ? Yours do, not theirs. Who foots the bill for all of it ? Middle class maybe ?

    Musk has enough coin of his own, he doesn't need ours too, I don't care how good or bad his product is.
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  • Kurt300Kurt300 Posts: 266
    I think a lot of this comes down to how people fundamentally view change. Some view change with a sense of wonder, and some with fear. Viewing it with wonder does not make you gullible. And viewing it with fear does not make you wrong. But the "wonder" people do tend to be liberal, and the "fear" people do tend to be conservative.

    Another reason I put down my reservation for the Model 3 is that there is a cluster of 8 supercharging stations right now between my work and home, just off the highway, open 24/7, for free, fast charging. Thus, a good deal of my fuel may simply be free. There are some nice restaurants near the station, so I may be fueling myself once a week while I fuel my car (perhaps one 60-75 min stop, and one 20-30 min stop, each week). Or maybe I do one overnight charge per week (at a small personal cost), to reduce the weekly "supercharges" to 1. We'll see.

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  • notifiednotified Posts: 175
    In response to Tonyb's post that starts stating- "'There's no environmental factor"...
    Sorry to bring this issue up again but I feel the need to clarify a few statements I made in my initial post.The term progressivism was a very poor choice I used to convey my intention.However in the googled Wikipedia definition its described as-"A broad philosophy based on the ideas of progress,Which asserts that advancements of science,technology,economic development,and social organization are vital to improve the human condition."I saw No mention of political affiliation implied and it seemed to convey my sentiment that- '"Through the organization of dedicated determined researchers may come the answers to the perplexities of todays environmental issues,"
    As embarrassing as it is to admit It was through Tonyb's assertive derogatory viewpoints that I came to research the term's political affiliation.
    Although after reading articles and watching some you tube videos I still find myself at a loss to really comprehend its true position in terms of political essence.As I understood it, in its initial American conception it seemed to prove to be a force of good that brought about positive social reforms thru constitutional amendments,And somehow later just prior to and during the Winslow administration it seems to have morphed its perceived fundamental principles into a form of fanatic socialism.But still unfortunately it would have to be with a more in depth analysis that I'd feel totally comfortable in agreement with Tony's assessment that his opinions expressed were that of its initial conception or completely of those in compliance of Wilson's ideology.
    Also in regards to Tonyb's opening statement I'd have to respectably disagree as its the EPA's assertion that 75% of the carbon mon, in the US is caused by motor vehicles
    The EDF says the US has 30% of the worlds cars,yet it contributes about half the worlds emissions from automobiles,
    And while I am in agreement that valuable funds have been squandered in relation to environmental concerns,But it is also warranted to say its the governments miss management in direction of viable investment that produces a portion of its loss.
    And again while its true no major benefits are seen in the immediate horizon,Still without a concerted effort and a fair allotment of allocated funds the situation may never see any sign of resolvement, And after all it was with this collective determination that put men on the moon! And that was of of a far less beneficial achievement! So perhaps there's hope yet!

  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 8,362
    Kurt...really....fear= conservative, where do you come up with that BS
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  • cnhcnh Posts: 13,310
    edited April 2016
    Chill out boys, just a thread about Teslas, love them or leave them. You can't settle anything anonymously over the internet. You needs to have a few cold ones face to face and remember some of us have facial hair. I used to have a full beard WORSE than Russ's when I was younger, but then it got grey and I went with the goatee! lol

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  • Moose68BashMoose68Bash Posts: 3,442
    edited April 2016
    tonyb wrote: »
    Nightfall wrote: »
    tonyb wrote: »
    they will never replace oil and it's versatility.

    Someday they will have to.

    Your right, and that's when something new will hit, but that day is a looong way off.

    Eventually, human beings will figure out how to produce electricity economically and cleanly using fusion energy. Astrophysicists and engineers have been trying for ~50 years and have yet "to crack this nut." But, they will.

    Then, the problem will be that energy is too cheap and too plentiful, which will create another set of problems at the same time that it solves a whole passel of ones that seem intractable today.

    By the way, @Kurt300, I'm one conservative who does not fear change nor views it with wonder. Yours is an absurdly simplistic dichotomy.

    Among other things I see change as inevitable -- sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes indifferent, most often mixed, like most things in life.

    And my entire adult life I've been one who promotes change -- not change for its own sake, but deliberate change.

    Those of us who have been around for six, seven, eight decades have seen, survived, and thrived on a lot of change. In the last three decades we have seen change at a pace that was inconceivable when I was in my 20s. People born during this period probably take change at this pace for granted.

    I don't see too many folks, liberal or conservative, quivering in fear in a corner or staring at the sky in wonder.

    We just seem to keep on keepin' on! Ain't life grand! :)
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  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 38,154
    Kurt300 wrote: »
    I think a lot of this comes down to how people fundamentally view change. Some view change with a sense of wonder, and some with fear. Viewing it with wonder does not make you gullible. And viewing it with fear does not make you wrong. But the "wonder" people do tend to be liberal, and the "fear" people do tend to be conservative.

    That is in the top five of the most ignorant comments I've read on this forum ever.

    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 15,098
    edited April 2016
    The challenge with using Wikipedia to bolster an argument or a position is akin, I'd opine, to using Snopes:

    snopes.png
    https://xkcd.com/250/

    Scholarship (i.e, research and documentation of well-"vetted" sources) is, unfortunately, a dwindling quantity in the internet age.
    "Some amps run on self bias, some amps run on fixed bias. But his amps run on confirmation bias." -- seen on audioasylum

  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,628
    edited April 2016
    Kurt300 wrote: »
    I think a lot of this comes down to how people fundamentally view change. Some view change with a sense of wonder, and some with fear. Viewing it with wonder does not make you gullible. And viewing it with fear does not make you wrong. But the "wonder" people do tend to be liberal, and the "fear" people do tend to be conservative.

    .

    You couldn't be more wrong Kurt.

    Change is always welcome, providing it's useful, improves lives, helps people in some way. When we went from horse and buggy to cars, changes in medicine and medical practices, exploring space. Changes in technology, appliances, indoor plumbing and electricity. Just a few examples of changes that benefit all and help improve their lives.

    The wrong change however can be devastating, or profess that mass amounts of people need to change so that a few can make tons of coin of their backs. Technology is always going to develop and change, doesn't mean we need to implement all of it.

    Want an example ? Robotics.....technology in robotics is extremely fascinating and moving forward at a great clip. It has it's uses in many things from shipping yards to manufacturing to space exploration and all points in between. Except now we are at the point of replacing humans with it. Jobs done by humans, who pay taxes and support the wheels of the economy are going away and replaced by robotics. In case you fell asleep in your economics class, we need a working citizenship to keep the country going.

    Somewhere along the line, some common sense has to be injected and someone needs to weigh the pro's and con's of the changes technology will bring. Without the dollar signs being the main objective.

    Bad change can also mean bad policy making too, which stands as the higher degree of confrontation imho.
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  • tonybtonyb Posts: 27,628
    notified wrote: »
    In response to Tonyb's post that starts stating- "'There's no environmental factor"...
    Sorry to bring this issue up again but I feel the need to clarify a few statements I made in my initial post.The term progressivism was a very poor choice I used to convey my intention.However in the googled Wikipedia definition its described as-"A broad philosophy based on the ideas of progress,Which asserts that advancements of science,technology,economic development,and social organization are vital to improve the human condition."I saw No mention of political affiliation implied and it seemed to convey my sentiment that- '"Through the organization of dedicated determined researchers may come the answers to the perplexities of todays environmental issues,"
    As embarrassing as it is to admit It was through Tonyb's assertive derogatory viewpoints that I came to research the term's political affiliation.
    Although after reading articles and watching some you tube videos I still find myself at a loss to really comprehend its true position in terms of political essence.As I understood it, in its initial American conception it seemed to prove to be a force of good that brought about positive social reforms thru constitutional amendments,And somehow later just prior to and during the Winslow administration it seems to have morphed its perceived fundamental principles into a form of fanatic socialism.But still unfortunately it would have to be with a more in depth analysis that I'd feel totally comfortable in agreement with Tony's assessment that his opinions expressed were that of its initial conception or completely of those in compliance of Wilson's ideology.
    Also in regards to Tonyb's opening statement I'd have to respectably disagree as its the EPA's assertion that 75% of the carbon mon, in the US is caused by motor vehicles
    The EDF says the US has 30% of the worlds cars,yet it contributes about half the worlds emissions from automobiles,
    And while I am in agreement that valuable funds have been squandered in relation to environmental concerns,But it is also warranted to say its the governments miss management in direction of viable investment that produces a portion of its loss.
    And again while its true no major benefits are seen in the immediate horizon,Still without a concerted effort and a fair allotment of allocated funds the situation may never see any sign of resolvement, And after all it was with this collective determination that put men on the moon! And that was of of a far less beneficial achievement! So perhaps there's hope yet!

    For now, I'll leave the political side out of it. In essence though, your promoting allocation of funds for a problem that doesn't exist. Exactly what I mean about common sense. We have many problems more deserving of those funds that actually do exist right in front of our noses, that have existed for decades.

    The pie of funds is only so big, my point is to allocate those funds for the best bang for the buck that would help improve everyones lives. Such as education, infrastructure, making healthcare cheaper, jobs, basically raising the standard of living.
    legacy Focus 20/20
    Butler tdb 2250
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    Pioneer elite vsx21
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    Audio Metallurgy GA-0 digital
    PS Audio Quintet
    Analysis Plus crystal ovals
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2's IC
  • Kurt300Kurt300 Posts: 266
    tonyb wrote: »
    Kurt300 wrote: »
    I think a lot of this comes down to how people fundamentally view change. Some view change with a sense of wonder, and some with fear. Viewing it with wonder does not make you gullible. And viewing it with fear does not make you wrong. But the "wonder" people do tend to be liberal, and the "fear" people do tend to be conservative.

    .

    You couldn't be more wrong Kurt.

    Change is always welcome, providing it's useful, improves lives, helps people in some way. When we went from horse and buggy to cars, changes in medicine and medical practices, exploring space. Changes in technology, appliances, indoor plumbing and electricity. Just a few examples of changes that benefit all and help improve their lives.

    The wrong change however can be devastating, or profess that mass amounts of people need to change so that a few can make tons of coin of their backs. Technology is always going to develop and change, doesn't mean we need to implement all of it.

    Want an example ? Robotics.....technology in robotics is extremely fascinating and moving forward at a great clip. It has it's uses in many things from shipping yards to manufacturing to space exploration and all points in between. Except now we are at the point of replacing humans with it. Jobs done by humans, who pay taxes and support the wheels of the economy are going away and replaced by robotics. In case you fell asleep in your economics class, we need a working citizenship to keep the country going.

    Somewhere along the line, some common sense has to be injected and someone needs to weigh the pro's and con's of the changes technology will bring. Without the dollar signs being the main objective.

    Bad change can also mean bad policy making too, which stands as the higher degree of confrontation imho.

    Tony, I agree with all that you said about change, above. None of that is in conflict with my point about how it tends to make people feel. I think it's interesting that the more people react negatively to my view, the more I believe that view accurately defines them. Just MHO. BTW, if my discussion on AI wasn't one of the threads that was erased last year (by an admin mistake?), you will see some of what you had to say reflected there.

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