Modern Art

This video pretty much sums it up as to how I feel about most modern art. It's...junk. Take Jackson Pollack, a certified nutcase who buys a big canvas and in a fit of insanity, splatters various colors of paint all over it. People pay millions for it, hang it up and all their friends OOO and AHHH over it saying how much it "Speaks to them." It speaks to me and says, you're a fool for buying that!

Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNI07egoefc
No excuses!
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Comments

  • smglbrth
    smglbrth Posts: 1,458
    I hear ya, good video. Modern society is pretty much the same way, with almost everything. No morals, anything goes, etc., etc...
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  • I appreciate all art.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,521
    The Modern Art label was created by the "everybody gets a trophy" crowd.
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited February 2016
    I'm not a fan of Pollock and not an art historian but even I could tell that satchel was NOT a Pollock, it did not have the primary characteristics of his method of painting which though certainly random and questionable, nonetheless has a process to it.

    I fully understand the assault on rationality and standards that "relativity" presents to and for most. But in my field, relativity is a fundamental and necessary tool for cultural and social criticism. We can't make objective critiques of our own society from a mere perusal of its "own" principles. And we NEED to understand "others" unlike us in order to communicate, share, exchange, trade, etc.

    It is ALSO a BIG mistake to lump ALL modern art together into one category. It is only more recently that things have started to fly apart. As I mentioned I am NO fan of Pollock, but I have stood in front of a number of his so-called greatest work and, well, I could not simply dismiss them, or not as easily as our Prof. above does.

    I remember attending the Rothko exhibit at the Guggenheim, as a Grad Student. Moron that I was I viewed the paintings backward, from late to early! Before I realized what I had done, I retraced my steps and if you know anything about Rothko his final works are nothing but black/gray blocks preceded by color paneling. Before that his works are more mythological in nature, theme. Rothko committed suicide SOON after that monotone period-that SPEAKS volumes about his historical trajectory! Looking at the final paintings, anyone can easily say, oh my kid could do that? But the meaning in them is not that of a child.

    Finally, in 1984, MOMA held its Primtivism exhibit where they placed Primitive art next to the modern artist's pieces that it may have inspired. What was interesting about that, especially for an anthropologist like yours truly, was how the modern art paled before the Primitive pieces from Africa and Oceania, etc. Those Primitive pieces produced for a public (tribe, band, culture) had more weight, gravitas than the modern pieces that were divorced from any cultural community or context. The other problem was that there was a litany of information on the modern artist and next to "nothing" about the Primitive society that had produced the primary pieces, it turned into a controversy for the field and us at that time.

    Franz Boas (father of American Anthropology and his students) showed us fairly early in the last century that Abstract art does NOT necessarily evolve from Realism. That both realism and abstract forms have been produced simultaneously and that sometimes one has preceded the other and vice versa once you take into consideration art from around the world and its history. There is no primacy nor superiority of one vs. the other.

    Is there a lot of Modern Art that is nonsense? Absolutely! But not all of it. It's like the reception that plays like Waiting for Godot got when they first appeared. What's that, it's nonsense! Well, maybe not! Or watching most of a sophisticated NYC audience walk out of Tarkovsky's Stalker, because it's so SLOW and BORING and seemingly pointless until you see that Stalker convulsing on the floor in front of a huge bookcase of great works, screaming, "Those intellectuals, they believe in NOTHING, NOTHING!" Then, suddenly, the threads of meaning come together and one begins to understand the Stalker's Allegory! Should all thought, art, music, dance, etc., be "easy"? Transparent? Have Universal standards? We can't even agree about AUDIO. The mantra here is they're YOUR ears not mine, what matters is what you hear, and yet there is NO subjectivity in ART?
    Post edited by cnh on
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited February 2016
    Now, I didn't really read all of the above :-P (sorry, CNH), but I skimmed it to see whether he mentioned either Dadaism or good ol' Marcel Duchamp. Both well worth some thought in this context, I'd opine.

    MagrittePipe.jpg

    I'd also suggest giving a listen to Stravinsky's "Le sacre du printemps" to get an idea of modern art as music / music as modern art. It (music and dance) literally precipitated fistfights in the audience and a near-riot at its premiere.

    Today, "Le Sacre" sounds pretty modern, pretty fresh, pretty exciting -- and pretty good.

    heh. a sketch of Stravinsky by Picasso seems eerily apt to include here ;- )

    481px-Igor_Stravinsky_as_drawn_by_Pablo_Picasso_31_Dec_1920_-_Gallica.jpg

    Here is a slide from one of my biotech lectures last fall. My point was that one is pretty much duty bound to learn - and master - "the old stuff"/the old rules before breaking all the old rules. I was teaching them some very old stuff (fundamentals of carbohydrate stereochemistry).

    s6oich90v3tw.jpg

    Picasso, and others after him, mastered the techniques of the masters and then shredded them.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Picasso, and others after him, mastered the techniques of the masters and then shredded them.

    I would tend to agree with that. It's only a rare few that ever surpass the master who taught them.

    Modern art....never cared for. Mainly because it's so convoluted that the paintings meaning is only visible to the one who painted it. Sure you can say that's the beauty of art, to draw your own interpretations, but I'm guessing an artist doesn't create something with that intent.

    I would imagine their point is to convey whats in their head, and judging by some of todays modern art, there's not much in those heads.
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited February 2016
    Yeah, I kind of went off there. But then again, I'm not a PITHY kind of guy. lol

    Futurists, Dadaists, Surrealists, Cubists... The argument that you must master all that goes before you is not entirely true, but it certainly serves those of us in the academy now doesn't it? I suppose I've used that myself, but I don't always believe it.

    And as to Magritte well what happened to Michel Foucault's tome? No Michel, OK he was NOT a philosopher NOR a historian, and he didn't much like the Police either. An Archaeologist of sorts, like Freud and Lacan (our postmodern PA).

    Soon after Breton wrote the Surrealistic Manifesto he went about living the surrealist life for a time or rather paid little attention to the rational, linear flow of time-when things were supposed to begin and end, etc.

    But enough. My closest friends are all in the arts and so much the "worse" for me because many of them aren't just smart they're gifted with vision and ideas! Not like us worthless academics with somewhat pedestrian organization and memory skills-(see Schopenhauer as Educator by a young Nietzsche-30, in fact). lol


    grjj3n526wm5.jpg
    Post edited by cnh on
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  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
    cnh I had to take a class in college about art and the told me what to see. I asked what is the point. They said so I would have something to talk about a cocktail parties. I drag my **** on the carpet at cocktail parties.
  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    afterburnt wrote: »
    cnh I had to take a class in college about art and the told me what to see. I asked what is the point. They said so I would have something to talk about a cocktail parties. I drag my **** on the carpet at cocktail parties.

    I understand what you mean. Lol
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  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
    upper division no less lol
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited February 2016
    afterburnt wrote: »
    cnh I had to take a class in college about art and the told me what to see. I asked what is the point. They said so I would have something to talk about a cocktail parties. I drag my **** on the carpet at cocktail parties.

    As a counterpoint of sorts... I have a PhD in biochemistry. Not braggin', just givin' some context. I didn't have to take a class in college about art, but I did. It was the single best course I took in school. "History of Art" taught by Phoebe Stanton @ JHU (late 1970s). It had the reputation of being the single best UG course in the university at the time -- because it was.

    I took it pass/fail (i.e., just for fun) -- and got an A in it :-P

    My point (if I have one...): Sometimes the issue isn't the course or the subject matter (or the student) -- it's the teacher :- )
  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,776
    edited February 2016
    The old addage: I don't know much about art...but I know what I like.
    I was never one to have someone "tell" me "This is art, you will like it or else." Spent about three days at the Louvre, the sculptures fascinated me the most. The sculptors who had rudimentary tools and could fetch such creations from a block of stone is waaaaay up on the appreciation list.
    I like Matisse as well.
    Post edited by lightman1 on
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    I pretty much like what I like, too -- my tastes in the arts, including music, are pretty unrefined.

    Thus, not much jazz on my shelves, e.g.
  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited February 2016
    Ah, Grasshopper! Tastes are like a pebble thrown into a pond that breaks the surface of the water and sends ripples outward till they disappear!

    All of my tastes have become more and more expansive as I age. And that's a good thing, I think?

    Brancusi, my namesake. He was a pretty good sculptor. It's wonderful when one has the opportunity to visit or even live close to some of the world's greatest art museums! I'm with you Russ.

    The current BUZZ at faculty meetings at elite liberal arts schools across the land is whether or not we should turn ourselves into feeder factories for corporations (jobs)! Art, Music, Literature, Philosophy, Languages (especially Greek and Latin), History and even the social sciences be D a m n e d!

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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    cnh wrote: »
    The current BUZZ at faculty meetings at elite liberal arts schools across the land is whether or not we should turn ourselves into feeder factories for corporations (jobs)! Art, Music, Literature, Philosophy, Languages (especially Greek and Latin), History and even the social sciences be D a m n e d!

    Say what ?? That discussion goes against everything education is suppose to be about. Education isn't solely about a job.....as you so eloquently explained previously with your pet sheep and plumb tree. lol

    How can educators even entertain such thoughts ?
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited March 2016
    some schools are pretty focused on providing a pathway to a job/career for their graduates. Northeastern in Boston jumps to mind -- it's a pretty good school (at least in biochem/biotech, which are the only disciplines I can address with much authority).
    http://www.northeastern.edu

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    I'm all for providing a pathways, but education is just such a more broad task.

    Turning colleges into nothing more than specified trade schools in my opinion is the wrong approach.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    As the possessor of a good ole fashioned liberal arts education* (including a minor in German), I don't disagree -- but there's also a place for pragmatism. Northeastern turns out a tailored product, but it's also a pretty good product.

    __________

    * Largely financed by the state and Federal governments of the time.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    Well then if they are going to narrowly tailor to specific areas then they should declare themselves a trade school and let that specific industry finance them. Food for thought is all.

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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    Well, truth be told, trade schools are probably a far better investment in terms of cost (time and financial) of the course of studies vs. the earning potential coming out the other side. The latter is especially true if integrated over one's lifetime.

    One of the big downsides of advanced degrees in some if not many disciplines is the lost earning potential of the years invested in pursuit of the degree. That's a significant demotivator, I'd opine, for students' pursuing a doctoral degree in a research-oriented discipline by the classical route. Heck, one company I worked for offered a subsidized doctoral program for its employees in cooperation with a local (Boston-area) university. The dissertation research was performed as an adjunct part of the student's day job, and company resources (laboratory and instrumentation) were available for the work. I thought this program was a huge win-win, and encouraged some of my own staff to pursue it. The only obligation the company imposed on the candidate was a 1 year commitment to stay on board with the company post-grad. Pretty good deal for a research degree from a well-respected university.

    In terms of the previous comment, I am not sure I'd consider a research institution with a top class research faculty that offers, e.g., a PhD in biochemistry, analytical chemistry, or cell biology as a trade school per se. Maybe I am just a little prickly on the topic ;- )

    I don't think Northeastern misrepresents itself in any way to its potential students, and I haven't found them to be lacking in terms of their education (including, e.g, communications skills) relative to graduates of more traditional institutions. Northeastern's big "hook" is the inclusion of a required internship with a company in one's field of study as an integral part of the curriculum. I don't think that approach is for everyone, but I also don't think it's a bad idea at all for a kid with a pretty good idea of what she/he wants to do.

  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited March 2016
    The question is not should we have some schools that are feeder schools for Corps. But, what would Education look like if ALL schools followed that model, which is often what happens. Should many of the liberal arts disciplines simply cease to exist because they do NOT directly supply or lead to a job? This is the ARGUMENT being made.

    The direction your argument takes, Mark is one of specialization and the benefits of a program like N.E. (which is a very good school, BTW), but still has a significant level of liberal arts available, I believe.

    It is NOT a question of the FEW but ALL. And that's where the problem lies. I too have a liberal arts undergrad education (as well as all the other graduate degrees that did not bring me much in the way of wealth, lol), and unlike those who went into the sciences who MUST take, advanced math, biology, chem, and physics lab courses. Those were the courses I chose to take in "addition" to my more humanities based courses.

    A two track system would be perfectly acceptable, and with Tony, let's get those companies who would like that to TIE themselves to it.

    The other unmentioned problem is, if one's goal is to get a JOB with a GOOD company, and that is the MOST IMPORTANT part of one's education, then what are we saying to those students in terms of independence and personal responsibility outside of the giant employer? Would it be good for such a student, now employee to cry out or criticize the conglomerate Leviathan when it tries to push product or research out that is NOT quite ready for prime time or potentially harmful? Would they teach that in such feeder schools? Something that might be discussed in a Philosophy course, Ethics-Yuck, how ethereal and otherworldly is that? lol

    I know that you value that liberal arts education you received because it is sprinkled throughout your posts, which is laudable for a hard scientist! So I really do not believe we disagree on the fundamentals here. Frankly, you remind me of a friend, who is no longer with us because of parasites he picked up in the field-the Amazon; he loved to play Devil's Advocate so much that we'd sit back and turn our attention to him as soon as we said anything that looked like an opinion or position. lol And, to be honest, he did it in the nicest and most gentlemanly way because he was a true southerner. He didn't deserve to die so young-misdiagnosed by the medical establishment and sent hurtling toward his end!

    And, my APOLOGIES, to Strong Bad for shamelessly hijacking this thread about modern art. So I am done with that.
    Post edited by cnh on
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    edited March 2016
    They (NEU) do indeed offer education in the liberal and in the fine and performing arts. I am pretty bullish on them, which is why I used 'em as an example.

    The funny thing, in the "hard" sciences -- education in chemistry long ago became an insdutry/academic partnership, and much university research in chemistry was heavily supported by industry. My discipline (biology/biochemistry) came very late to that party. The US government (primarily in the body of the National Institutes of Health) heavily underwrote life sciences research education until quite recently. Only with the rise of biotechnology did industry support of academic research become a significant factor.

    We certainly don't disagree! Is there a place for pure-play academics? Heck, yeah. It's never quite died out, even in the "dark" days (not Dark Ages) following the fall of the Roman Empire. And my involvement (low value as it may be) in this paricular thread was precipitated by wanting to share a little (but very important, to me) liberal arts snippet of my otherwise decidedly "preprofessional" UG education! :- )

    I am very fortunate to be well-educated (even in the classical sense of the term) -- something that would have perhaps not even been possible for a kid of my socioeconomic status had I not been fortunate enough to grow up in an age when 1) even private education was relatively affordable and 2) the US and (most) state governments were very dedicated to supporting, even underwriting, college education for promising and/or "needy" students. Golden days for American education were the '60s and '70s.

    The big historical value, I'd opine, of post-secondary education was to provide a setting and context for students to learn how to think (not what to think); how to parse information in support of a thesis, how to evaluate (and to qualify) a stream of information critically and how to abstract and synthesize positions and opinions from the fire hose of information available. These skills are more modeled than taught, methinks -- and they're even more urgently needed now than ever before.

    Whew! Sorry for the sermon.
    Movin' along, now...
  • oldmodman
    oldmodman Posts: 740
    Playboy.

    I used to look at it for the "art"
  • afterburnt
    afterburnt Posts: 7,892
    tonyb wrote: »
    I'm all for providing a pathways, but education is just such a more broad task.

    Turning colleges into nothing more than specified trade schools in my opinion is the wrong approach.

    Better than secular seminaries
  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited March 2016
    mhardy6647 wrote: »

    I am very fortunate to be well-educated (even in the classical sense of the term) -- something that would have perhaps not even been possible for a kid of my socioeconomic status had I not been fortunate enough to grow up in an age when 1) even private education was relatively affordable and 2) the US and (most) state governments were very dedicated to supporting, even underwriting, college education for promising and/or "needy" students. Golden days for American education were the '60s and '70s.


    +1! I am four years older by my reckoning.
    Post edited by cnh on
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,776
    Now y'all see what happens when two academics, one a liberal thinker and the other a pragmatic scientist start blowing hot air about there respective trades.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    Point taken -- my humble peace offering...

    vin59UKTapeRecCvr.jpg

  • Polkie2009
    Polkie2009 Posts: 3,834
    Damsel in Distress,lol.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,926
    Mylar bondage -- hot stuff.