Anyone play with their VTA?

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StevieB
StevieB Posts: 256
in Electronics
Just bought a VPI Traveler and love it so far but I've never owned a turntable that had an adjustable tracking angle. Is this something to adjust when playing regular and 180g vinyl or will it make you go blind? :)
McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
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  • honestaquarian
    honestaquarian Posts: 3,186
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    Very few turntables have a VTA adjustment. In another thread about the venerable Technics SL-1200 DJ table I mentioned the fact that it has a VTA adjustment. The VTA should be set according to the cartridge you are using.
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,871
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    look out, you'll go blind >:)
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
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    Puritan PSM156
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  • StevieB
    StevieB Posts: 256
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    I would recommend messing around a bit if you're able, there's definitely a sweet spot. With the denon 103r a little down past parallel in the rear. Just listened to Electric Ladyland and was blown away! I honestly never realized vinyl could sound that good.
    McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
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  • agfrost
    agfrost Posts: 2,421
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    marvda1 wrote: »
    look out, you'll go blind >:)

    Ha! I opened this thread just to make that joke. You beat me to the punch.
    Jay
    SDA 2BTL * Musical Fidelity A5cr amp * Oppo BDP-93 * Modded Adcom GDA-600 DAC * Rythmik F8 (x2)
    Micro Seiki DQ-50 * Hagerman Cornet 2 Phono * A hodgepodge of cabling * Belkin PF60
    Preamp rotation: Krell KSL (SCompRacer recapped) * Manley Shrimp * PS Audio 5.0
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  • agfrost
    agfrost Posts: 2,421
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    I found this article interesting.

    Personally, I don't go overboard--Just try to get the arm level during playback.
    Jay
    SDA 2BTL * Musical Fidelity A5cr amp * Oppo BDP-93 * Modded Adcom GDA-600 DAC * Rythmik F8 (x2)
    Micro Seiki DQ-50 * Hagerman Cornet 2 Phono * A hodgepodge of cabling * Belkin PF60
    Preamp rotation: Krell KSL (SCompRacer recapped) * Manley Shrimp * PS Audio 5.0
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,352
    edited February 2016
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    If you provide a man with a knob, he will turn it. ;) Jay pointed to a good article on it.

    My arm has a VTA knob with digital readout. Was thinking it would be kewl to make it remote control with a motor....VTA on the fly...lol

    lenco_1-1.jpg
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • agfrost
    agfrost Posts: 2,421
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    ahh, a pic from when your TT was going through its "Goth phase".

    (or Johnny Cash phase, perhaps?)
    Jay
    SDA 2BTL * Musical Fidelity A5cr amp * Oppo BDP-93 * Modded Adcom GDA-600 DAC * Rythmik F8 (x2)
    Micro Seiki DQ-50 * Hagerman Cornet 2 Phono * A hodgepodge of cabling * Belkin PF60
    Preamp rotation: Krell KSL (SCompRacer recapped) * Manley Shrimp * PS Audio 5.0
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  • ken brydson
    ken brydson Posts: 8,649
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    marvda1 wrote: »
    look out, you'll go blind >:)

    Or get hairy palms (gets out razor)
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,352
    edited February 2016
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    agfrost wrote: »
    ahh, a pic from when your TT was going through its "Goth phase".

    (or Johnny Cash phase, perhaps?)

    I kinda dug hot goth chicks in my goth stage...

    OR.......cranked up past eleven,,,,,,

    Back in black!

    https://youtu.be/H8PC1_3fjvs
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,906
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    I play with my VTA all the time.

    Wait....what are we talking about again...TT's ? My bad... :)
    HT SYSTEM-
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  • StevieB
    StevieB Posts: 256
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    So after reading the article, maybe the guy who set it up didn't have the arm quite level? The sound stage was there, but was lacking much if any bass. Whatever the reason, sounds damn good now. Never had a good turntable with SDA's. :)
    agfrost wrote: »
    I found this article interesting.

    Personally, I don't go overboard--Just try to get the arm level during playback.

    McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
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  • agfrost
    agfrost Posts: 2,421
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    StevieB wrote: »
    So after reading the article, maybe the guy who set it up didn't have the arm quite level? The sound stage was there, but was lacking much if any bass. Whatever the reason, sounds damn good now. Never had a good turntable with SDA's. :)

    Excellent! There's some great sound to be gotten from a TT. A good pressing of a well recorded album is something to behold!
    Jay
    SDA 2BTL * Musical Fidelity A5cr amp * Oppo BDP-93 * Modded Adcom GDA-600 DAC * Rythmik F8 (x2)
    Micro Seiki DQ-50 * Hagerman Cornet 2 Phono * A hodgepodge of cabling * Belkin PF60
    Preamp rotation: Krell KSL (SCompRacer recapped) * Manley Shrimp * PS Audio 5.0
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,434
    edited February 2016
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    tonyb wrote: »
    I play with my VTA all the time.
    Wait....what are we talking about again...TT's ? My bad... :)
    Wait, we're allowed to talk about TT's on this board? when did *that* happen?!?
    Can we post pictures of TT's now too?!?
    I disabled signatures.
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,776
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    I like a nice sized pair of TT's myself.
    You know... Like DJs have.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,434
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    yes, I agree - when I was looking for my TT, I kept seeing these really nice photos of sets of DJ TT's set up real nice, with the dust covers off. the black ones are my favorites, but I like the lighter color ones, too. the VTA dials on these units are just begging to be tweaked.
    I disabled signatures.
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,776
    edited February 2016
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    ;)
    msg wrote: »
    yes, I agree - when I was looking for my TT, I kept seeing these really nice photos of sets of DJ TT's set up real nice, with the dust covers off. the black ones are my favorites, but I like the lighter color ones, too. the VTA dials on these units are just begging to be tweaked.

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  • Dawgfish
    Dawgfish Posts: 2,554
    edited February 2016
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    I definitely adjust my VTA. Luckily the four tables I own all have adjustable VTA. I read an article from Michael Fremer stating that basically most records are cut with the cutter head stylus at 92° and that one should also set the styli on your turntable at 92° to replicate the cutter head. After reading this I gave it a try. On 22 of the 23 cartridges I own, setting the VTA at 92° made a definite improvement in sound. The tonal balance from top to bottom was correct, and the soundstage width and depth increased from a decent to huge amount depending on the particular cartridge.

    One of the things you hear a lot in the audio community is Grado cartridges in general have rolled off highs. You need to hear a Grado set with a VTA of 92°! The highs really come to life, detail is improved, and soundstage width and depth become huge. Granted there still may not be as much high end extension as your typical AT or Sumiko, but high level detail is definitely there and much better than many realize without them being set to the proper VTA.

    I am not so fanatical with VTA that I change it between playing 140 gram to 200 gram records unless it seems grossly out of balance. Generally whenever swapping out cartridges, I set the VTA to 92° with a 180 gram record on the platter and leave it.
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
    edited February 2016
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    Dawgfish wrote: »
    I read an article from Michael Fremer stating that basically most records are cut with the cutter head stylus at 92° and that one should also set the styli on your turntable at 92° to replicate the cutter head.

    So you're saying you have the back of the arm up higher then the front to get 92°?

    tng2sk3o2hhe.jpg

    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • Dawgfish
    Dawgfish Posts: 2,554
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    gce wrote: »
    Dawgfish wrote: »
    I read an article from Michael Fremer stating that basically most records are cut with the cutter head stylus at 92° and that one should also set the styli on your turntable at 92° to replicate the cutter head.

    So you're saying you have the back of the arm up higher then the front to get 92°?

    tng2sk3o2hhe.jpg

    Yes that's exactly right. It sounds counter-intuitive to what you always heard about setup before. Before reading the article, I always ran the tonearm either level with the record or even with the tonearm slightly lower than the headshell with most carts. The thing is when you first try it, the rear of the tonearm will be higher than you were expecting it to be. It's ok though. Try it! You'll like what you hear! BTW, Soundsmith recommends setting carts up with a 92° VTA also.

    BTW, I use cartridge gauge blocks from Expressimo Audio to set the VTA. They are cheap ($19.99 iirc) and easy to use.
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
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    Thanks for the info. I've always heard down in the back, never up (92°). That's why I asked but I'm going to try it. You can always trust Michael. ;)
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • voltz
    voltz Posts: 5,384
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    when you mention 92 degrees I get lost thinking is that open? or closed? as it depends how you look at it. but now i know what you mean.
    2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge

    HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
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    voltz wrote: »
    when you mention 92 degrees I get lost thinking is that open? or closed? as it depends how you look at it. but now i know what you mean.

    Yeah, I was a little confused too. That's why I put up the pic. Now I'zz get it. ;)
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • StevieB
    StevieB Posts: 256
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    I
    gce wrote: »
    voltz wrote: »
    when you mention 92 degrees I get lost thinking is that open? or closed? as it depends how you look at it. but now i know what you mean.

    Yeah, I was a little confused too. That's why I put up the pic. Now I'zz get it. ;)

    It appears on the Expressimoaudio site they are measuring the 92 degrees from the other side of the stylus.

    Cartridge%20VTA0001.jpg
    McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
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  • voltz
    voltz Posts: 5,384
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    LOL Dang it Steve ...now you got me pulling my hair out and I ain't got much left :)
    2 ch- Polk CRS+ * Vincent SA-31MK Preamp * Vincent Sp-331 Amp * Marantz SA8005 SACD * Project Xperience Classic TT * Sumiko Blue Point #2 MC cartridge

    HT - Polk 703's * NAD T-758 * Adcom 5503 * Oppo 103 * Samsung 60" series 8 LCD
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  • Dawgfish
    Dawgfish Posts: 2,554
    edited February 2016
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    Trust me gentlemen, you want the back of the tonearm to be higher. http://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra#vZepvdDA4cR7TY6l.97. This is a good place to start getting your read on. Not the using the USB microscope part, but click on the links regarding the 92° setting. Try it and let your own ears tell you!

    Oh yeah if you go to the Expressimo Audio website,http://www.expressimoaudio.com/vtablock.html, you want to use the +2 gauge block shown on the bottom pic. Raise the tonearm until the front of the cart is parallel to the edge of the +2 gauge block.
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  • StevieB
    StevieB Posts: 256
    edited February 2016
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    Hey, I'm not the only one that plays with it...I knew it! :)
    McCormack DNA-1 Amp, Parasound Halo P5 Pre Amp, Denon DVD 2900 CD player, Adcom GDA 700 DAC, VPI Traveler TT with Denon 103R cartridge, Lounge Audio MKiii phono pre and Copla SUT, Polk SDA SRS 3.1 TL speakers, Tributaries series 8 IC's and speaker cable.
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  • Dawgfish
    Dawgfish Posts: 2,554
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    StevieB wrote: »
    Hey, I'm not the only one that plays with it...I knew it! :)

    Lol! And if you say you don't, you're lying! :-)
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  • gce
    gce Posts: 2,158
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    Dawgfish wrote: »
    Trust me gentlemen, you want the back of the tonearm to be higher. http://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra#vZepvdDA4cR7TY6l.97. This is a good place to start getting your read on. Not the using the USB microscope part, but click on the links regarding the 92° setting. Try it and let your own ears tell you!

    Oh yeah if you go to the Expressimo Audio website,http://www.expressimoaudio.com/vtablock.html, you want to use the +2 gauge block shown on the bottom pic. Raise the tonearm until the front of the cart is parallel to the edge of the +2 gauge block.

    So if I understand this right, if I have a 9" arm raising or lowering it .157" (4mm) would = 1°. So if I was at 90° I would have to raise the back (pivot point) .314" to get 92°? That seems like a lot.
    Anaheim Hills CA,
    HT 5.1: Anthem MRX 720 / BDP-Denon DBT1713UD / Polkaudio LSiM703 / W4S mAmp's / Polkaudio LSiM706c / Polkaudio LSiM702F/X's / SVS PC12-NSD / Panasonic TC P55VT30

    2 Channel: Rogue RP-5 / WireWorld Electra power cord / Marantz TT-15S1/ Ortofon - Quintet Black MC / Marantz NA8005 DAC / W4S mAmp's / Synology DS 216+ll-4TB / Polkaudio LSiM703
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  • miner
    miner Posts: 1,305
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    That is right.
    Sin 2 deg = 0.0349
    0.0349 = A/9
    A = 9 X 0.0349 = 0.314

    On my VPI that would be 10 full turns of the VTA tower.
    [
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  • Dawgfish
    Dawgfish Posts: 2,554
    edited February 2016
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    gce wrote: »
    Dawgfish wrote: »
    Trust me gentlemen, you want the back of the tonearm to be higher. http://www.analogplanet.com/content/how-use-usb-digital-microscope-set-92-degree-stylus-rake-angle-sra#vZepvdDA4cR7TY6l.97. This is a good place to start getting your read on. Not the using the USB microscope part, but click on the links regarding the 92° setting. Try it and let your own ears tell you!

    Oh yeah if you go to the Expressimo Audio website,http://www.expressimoaudio.com/vtablock.html, you want to use the +2 gauge block shown on the bottom pic. Raise the tonearm until the front of the cart is parallel to the edge of the +2 gauge block.

    So if I understand this right, if I have a 9" arm raising or lowering it .157" (4mm) would = 1°. So if I was at 90° I would have to raise the back (pivot point) .314" to get 92°? That seems like a lot.

    That is right. Again like I mentioned before, it seems like you raise it more than you should, but it works. I read somebody else's post in another forum that explains a cool experiment to try and here it goes: run your finger nail along a surface like a piece of lumber, tile, vinyl etc. First try it with your finger perpendicular to the surface to simulate a 90° VTA. Now try it with your finger raked back slightly to simulate a 92° VTA. Tell me what you feel and what the differences are. I know it's not a completely analogous comparison, but still try it and then think about what you just experienced. I'm not going to say any more about it. You can either dismiss it or try it. I tried it and was glad I did. I'm not the one who made this up.
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