Breaking in speakers...Myth or valid?

vickievinyl

Hello All, I've seen "breaking in" speakers mentioned a lot. I can't say if I have ever noticed a speaker improving from brand new, that is not to say it hasn't. the Audioholics guys say that it is a myth, that at most a speaker needs a few minutes to break in from new. they say what is actually breaking in is your hearing adapting to the speakers over time. I suppose if someone is all about test measurements, speaker break-in has no validity, but my feeling is that subtle changes probably do happen over time and perhaps a loudspeaker matures like a fine vintage wine? What say you?

BlueFox

Yes it is true. Buy a good pair of speakers, good gear, good cables, and find out for yourself. Rarely is Audioholics ever right about audio.

tonyb

LOL...lets be nice now.

The reason why you may not notice is because the breaking in process happens slowly over time. If you took 2 pairs of the exact same speaker, one new and one well broken in, you'd notice a slight change in sound.

cfrizz

I never knew anything about break in until I came on here. I simply play them and enjoy.

ZLTFUL

Aside from the mechanical break-in (surrounds, spiders, suspension...) of the drivers themselves (which really is fairly quick), the capacitors dielectric needs to be conditioned.
Electrolytic capacitors are especially susceptible to this need if they have sat for an extended period of time. The need to "reform" electrolytic caps is a well known fact...not myth.

Does this take hundreds of hours? Well...it could. It really depends on how complex of a crossover we are talking about and the number of components involved. A complex pre-amp will take longer to break-in than a single capacitor crossover on a full range driver...

SCompRacer

For what it's worth....this is quoted from Danny Richie's 17th post in this thread at Audio Circle. Danny is quite the respected speaker builder, so I consider it valid for any debate.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=104082.0

EDIT: Add Danny's "Burn in Myths Busted" page.

http://www.gr-research.com/myths.htm

I can't believe this is still being discussed.

Break in effects are well documented.

And the first 5 minutes of play won't even get you close. Most woofers need a good 80 to 100 hours or so to reach a near settled range. The links posted above clearly show this.

I have also looked at the measured responses and spectral decays over a long burn in period and noted that the spectral decay becomes much cleaner as the woofer loosens up. It's easy to see on the graphs. So basically you have less stored energy and a much cleaner sound.

And the effects are very audible.

There is also an electrical burn in effect to the woofers as well. It is harder to document though.

Capacitors take just as long to settle as well. Most poly caps will take a good 100 hours or so and any Teflon based caps can take a good 500 hours or more to settle in. Sometimes the change during that time can be quite surprising.

I have also built identical sets of speakers that measured the same and sounded the same. But after playing one pair for a couple of weeks it no longer sounded like the other pair in a side by side comparison. The burned in pair had a much more relaxed and coherent sound. Bass response was smoother and deeper without question. The mid-range was more fluid as well. Highs were cleaner too. There was really no comparison. The fresh pair sounded strained and even a little harsh by comparison. Then after a few weeks of burning in the other pair, they sounded exactly the same again.

Even the wire goes through a noticeable burn in period that changes the sound.

cnh

Hey Tony! Spend a while youtubing Audioholics reviews and discussions and you will lose most of what you've learned here. Not being mean; aren't they the guys who have NEVER heard a Polk speaker that was worth discussing? lol

Cables? Don't matter. Amps-Pro-amps are fine. Does Hi-res matter? and the list goes on and on, on and on, on and on and on-to the point where you start losing some brain cells! lol

They call them like they don't hear them!

F1nut

They also believe cables are not directional. Well, I suppose when all you are using is zip cord that would be true.

tonyb

Yeah, Audioholics , They keep chasing their tales in a circle never making any headway in audio. Funny how some simply want to justify their reasons for not spending more money on their systems. Which is fine if you don't, but then don't criticize those who do.

You should read some threads over on the Sonos forum. Dacs and amps don't matter, sound the same....cables are a waste and pseudo science, blah blah blah.

acmf74

From MY personal experience speakers have a break-in period.

I bought my lsi15s brand new and they sounded very tinny. I left music playing through them for a few days straight at various levels. Everyday they improved and after a few 100 hours they settled in and sound great.

SCompRacer

kevintomb wrote: »

But nothing he says, actually "Proves" any of his points, NOR even more importantly shows even a hint of knowledge or mention that he may becoming more used to a new sound or more accepting of it.

Not having the knowledge or awareness, of how ALL humans adapt to new things, skews his "results" greatly.

All of what he says may be quite true, but it does not separate REAL break in from simply becoming used to or content with a new sound or product.

Until that goal is reached, it is all mostly subjective "Beliefs"

In the scientific world, others would attempt to prove or disprove he was right or wrong with their own test using his methodology and publish their results . If nobody challenges him with other than an opinion, he still has merit. Much more than a subjective opinion.

If you read the thread, you will see a comment by Dennis Murphy. He is not as well known as Danny. Aside from being a concert violinist, he is also a respected builder of value packed speakers but is more famous for his crossover work. My Salk speakers have his crossover design. He says it only takes minutes for break in.

An employee of Salk's chimes in with belief in the break in process but only by feel of the new woofer and by listening.

Myself, it has been so long since I purchased speakers new I don't have an opinion of my own about whether they sounded different after hundreds of hours.

xcapri79 wrote: »

Really?! What is the science behind this? I'm specifically referring to this claim of wire burn in.

You will have to ask Danny as I quoted his entire statement.

tonyb

kevintomb wrote: »

tonyb wrote: »

Yeah, Audioholics , They keep chasing their tales in a circle never making any headway in audio. Funny how some simply want to justify their reasons for not spending more money on their systems. Which is fine if you don't, but then don't criticize those who do.

You should read some threads over on the Sonos forum. Dacs and amps don't matter, sound the same....cables are a waste and pseudo science, blah blah blah.

Most things end up being somewhere in the middle, when it involves highly subjective things, such as sound and audio.

There is REALITY.

There is what we THINK is our reality.( Our minds perception which is coloured by emotion, bias and all kinda thoughts)

The two rarely meet.

Good points, but for those that require science, you can probably google up many speaker makers, driver makers and get some test specs on broken in speakers/drivers with real worth frequency responses between the 2.

That said, the difference are not going to be a night and day thing, which some contest if it's not, then it isn't worth talking about.

SCompRacer

Being an old racer, the time slip never lied. The time slip had your elapsed time and miles per hour on it. And your reaction time. Did the new "thing" or adjustments make the car measurably faster. Was it more consistent. Some guys would not implement the new thing properly, or messed up another part of the equation on the car and would get poor results, thus bad mouthing the 'thing.' This example can apply to any hobby or business methods.

I've watched racers put in universal joints that would break after a run or two. It wasn't the joint, it was the driveline angle. You could explain until you were blue in the face about severe degrees of angle placing excess stress on the part, but they would not listen. It was the friggin u joint manufacturer(s). You can apply this to any hobby or business methods.

In the subjective world, emotion can play a part. It is up to the user, alone, listening to their gear, to question whether or not they can hear a difference and whether they like that difference. That takes experience and an open mind.

I've said on occasion you can't lie to nobody like you can lie to yourself. However, you can also be more truthful to yourself than anyone else. It's just a choice you have to make.

tonyb

"Experience and an open mind" ?? Get outta town...lol

mrloren

Audioholics,,,,, these guy's are the ones that say not to buy high end cables because it doesn't make a difference! Same Blu Ray player same AVR and same speakers. Change to audioquest HDMI and there was a big audio and small picture difference...

Yes speakers do need time to break in. the difference is not night and day but a good set of speakers sounds better after a few hundred hours of use.

SCompRacer

kevintomb wrote: »

Well to throw a wrench into it all.

We can fix things with wrenches! lol

I don't understand how getting used to a speaker would change its characteristics. I mean if it were bright, and you got used to it, it would still actually sound bright but you don't care anymore or actually grew to like it.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, just trying to understand how time and getting used to something would change it's characteristics. If the perception of how it sounds changes, that's on you.

polkfarmboy

When I came to this forum I though, these guys are all delusional and trying to justify what they spent. I never believed nothing until I started paying attention and trying things for myself.

I first noticed the phenomenon of breakin when Amazon dropped the price on Martin Logan source from $2800 to $1500 a pair. Snapped them up and noticed how the bass just expanded into a huge soundstage. There was this once piece of music however that the chello's would all kick in on this Scandinavian techno song and I noticed that getting deeper and bigger till it gave me a sense of the magnitude of the area it was sampled from.

After a while I started being able to use others point of view to aid me in forming my own.

nooshinjohn

I like putting new gear in the room and listen to it on a familiar piece of music, then walk away for a period of several hours, allowing music to play the entire time I am at work. Then I listen again to the same piece of music.

My ears did not have time to get accustomed to the sound after just one song, and I am always blown away by the dramatic improvement I experience when I listen again the second time...

F1nut

Sorry, I don't buy into the you get used to the sound theory.

I had a power cord here on demo, it imparted an artifact that I noted from the start and after 600 hours it was still there. I never got used to it and back it went. The RTiA7's in my HT rig had a hot top end, never got used to that either. After about a year of that I solved the issue with a crossover upgrade and MIT Shotgun cables. I replaced some Mullard's in the Manley one day thinking they were the CV4024/M8162 version when in fact they were the CV4024's. They didn't sound right, but thinking they need to burn in I suffered through a few hundred hours after which they still didn't sound right. I finally realized the error and put the CV4024/M8162's in. I could go on, but you should have the picture by now.

That said, I do believe that some people don't trust or have not learned how to trust their ears and use that theory as an excuse.

cnh

I have to agree here. I have a set of Rti-A3s (successors to your Rti-6s). They sound "bright". They don't image very well. I've had them for a couple of years. They used to serve duty in my secondary HT system in the basement but I just COULD NOT GET "USED" to them. Shifted them to different duty, tweaked a few things like Jesse above-a bit better now. But they've been replaced by A.Js Pio 22s in the basement system, not as hot up top, better sound stage and imaging in my opinion. And YES, they needed a break in period.

IF it's "bright" my ears will never accommodate. They "rebel"! lol

On the other hand. My first Polk Peerless speakers were the Monitor 5As (obviously they were broken in when I received them) I fell in love with the Peerless tweeters on first listen and years later, I still love that warm laid back sound! Have picked up the 7s and 10s since then!

polkfarmboy

I like my speakers like my woman, great to look at, not too bright and easy on my ears.

Nightfall

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I like my speakers like my woman, great to look at, not too bright and easy on my ears.

Somebody is going to tear you apart for this... Cross your fingers Cathy doesn't stop by.

mantis

I have installed the worlds highest end speakers. I have heard them brand new out of the box and then after a week of break in.
When I worked for Soundex , we use to unbox many new speakers and break them in for customers before we would Install them. Especially the extreme high end models.
Years ago I thought that the brand new speaker actually sound sound it's best brand new and then lose quality over time. I found that not to be the case.
I have also talked to many speaker engineers and I have been told my many of them that break in usually takes from 40 to 100 hours of playtime to have everything working at spec.

vickievinyl

Just had a thought about "breaking in one's ears" vs breaking in a speaker. From my experience, whenever I acquire anything new, my expectations are that I am going to like it, and it will be an improvement over what I previously used, had etc. So in my scenario I usually like something right away and then later on become more objective in assessing what is "right" and what is "wrong". I suppose you could call it the "honeymoon" period where I would overlook the faults and only acknowledge the positive attributes. So for me I feel that if I hear improvements in sound quality over time that these are real improvements, whether this is something that can be measured with test equipment. I'm not sure. For me. after the newness wears off, I get more critical, not less so.

WLDock

There is for sure speaker break-in. Heck over time you can even wear out the soft parts where things start to sound worst. I heard this the most years ago with less capable subwoofers. Things would sound tight and accurate at first. However, after hours and hours of pounding the sound would loosen up and loose the detail and precision..and start to break up sooner.

So, I could see a midrange driver for example being a little edgy at first but mellowing out over time.

Speakers are mechanical...so I think that is easy for more to see. Electronics o.t.o.h. are more up for debate.

vickievinyl

I agree @WLDock. I've worked as an electro-mechanical designer and components do change over time in the field I work in (electric motor design). I feel that loudspeaker evaluation has to be subjective, what sounds balanced and open to me may sound anemic or tinny or any other descriptive adjectives to someone else. I think, like myself, that most people are more objective over time and less subjective. So, if someone says that their speakers sound better to them after 6 months that has to be true for them, otherwise a person is "filtering out" what they don't like and that gets very tiring after a while. I know from experience because I work in a noisy environment and over the years have been able to filter out the annoying noise, but not without a cost. I would leave work with a lot more energy if I didn't have to listen to the cacophony of production workers' chatter over an 8 hour period.

nooshinjohn

Nightfall wrote: »

polkfarmboy wrote: »

I like my speakers like my woman, great to look at, not too bright and easy on my ears.

Somebody is going to tear you apart for this... Cross your fingers Cathy doesn't stop by.

I should tear into you for quoting him... he is on my Bozo List for a reason.

polkfarmboy

You dont have a list and you follow my threads and reply to my posts in an almost perverted manner.The fact that you brought my name up confirms it, let it go lil guy, let it go.

mantis

Quoted right from the B&W CM9s2 manual

The performance of the speaker will change subtly during the initial listening period. If the speaker has been stored in a cold environment, the damping compounds and suspension materials of the drive units will take some time to recover their correct mechanical properties. The drive unit suspensions will also loosen up during the first hours of use. The time taken for the speaker to achieve its intended performance will vary depending on previous storage conditions and how it is used. As a guide, allow up to
a week for the temperature effects to stabilise and 15 hours of average use for the mechanical parts to attain their intended design characteristics.

mantis

KLIPSCH
How to: Breaking in speakers
Many audio experts and speaker manufacturers say that loudspeakers really benefit from break-in. Like anything else mechanical, the drivers—the midrange and woofers—found in almost all speakers have moving parts that move more freely with time, or effort. Two components may particularly benefit from a break-in period: The surround, which can be made of various types of rubber or foam, is what connects the edge of the cone to the speaker basket, and the spider, which connects the basket and the center of the cone.

Both surrounds and spiders are flexible; therefore, allowing them to experience their full range of motion and loosen up results in freer movement and better response. Think of it like stretching before you exercise.
There are several simple ways to break a speaker in; while you could choose to buy costly gear to do so, it really isn’t required.

The easiest—and most enjoyable—way is to simply play them, choosing music with a wide dynamic range. Playing it just a bit louder than you normally might also help. Many receivers have a test tone that can accomplish the same goal; test signals are also commercially available.

A small warning here: not all speakers will sound dramatically different after break-in. Some improve only marginally, while others do change in ways that may dazzle you. Either way, it’s possible that you’ll notice an improvement.

vickievinyl

Thanks for posting Dan. Makes complete sense to me!