Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature Reference Crossover Modification Thread

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VR3
VR3 Posts: 28,041
edited February 2014 in DIY, Mods & Tweaks
THIS is going to be "BALLS OUTS!"

Tweeter Network -
Clarity Cap MR
Clarity Cap ESA 250V Shunt
Duelund Resistors (cast)
Perfect Lay or Foil Inductors, whatever matches the DCR

Midbass Network -
Clarity Cap MR
Clarity Cap ESA 250V Shunt
Mundorf Supreme Resistors
Stock if perfect lay/film, if not - will change to such

Woofer Network -
Clarity Cap ESA
Perfect Lay Inductor versus iron core

External Enclosure for right/left -
Speakers will be wired with Supra 13 awg wire internally and from speaker to crossover
NL4/2 Connections from speaker to crossover
Input connection WBT
Crossovers will be on an isolated platform from the enclosure floor

No Rez on the enclosure walls

This will be a lot of fun! :)
- Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
Post edited by VR3 on
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited February 2013
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    Just because it's a shunt circuit, doesn't mean it also doesn't deserve the best. ;)

    Otherwise, sounds like a fun project!
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited February 2013
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    Its not a matter of "dont wanna use the MR" but its a matter of... 100-200uf in the MR would need its OWN enclosure! :-P
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,334
    edited February 2013
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    How big do they make the enclosure you were talking about, Trey?

    attachment.php?attachmentid=8157&d=1360501874

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited February 2013
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    As big as we want them, built to order! :)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited February 2013
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    Tom- I take it this is your speakers?

    What a fun project. I can't wait to hear about how it sounds after the upgrade.
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,484
    edited February 2013
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    Trey, not to sound like a d*ck. But wouldn't the Duelund cast resistors be the "balls out" resistor to use?
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,484
    edited February 2013
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    headrott wrote: »
    Trey, not to sound like a d*ck. But wouldn't the Duelund cast resistors be the "balls out" resistor to use?

    Sorry, i just noticed you do have them on the tweeter crossovers. Why not use them in the midbass as well? I guess I do need more than 2 hours of sleep per night.:wink:
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,802
    edited February 2013
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    Why are there 100-200uf caps in the tweeter and mid-bass circuits?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited February 2013
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    I will be honest that I have not looked at this crossover in a year and a half and at that time I was not cataloging schematics.

    I reviewed the pictures and the tweeter has a 200uf parallel cap, the midbass has 120uf series cap.

    As far as resistors go, this is just a preliminary layout but I have had great success with Mundorf Supreme and Mills MRC in the bass network over duelund. It is more about synergy than price sometimes, imo.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited February 2013
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    I definitely need to talk about that 120uf in the midbass section as it is far more critical than I thought
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited February 2013
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    F1nut wrote: »
    Why are there 100-200uf caps in the tweeter and mid-bass circuits?
    In the HF section, it could be a trap/notch filter or impedance compensation... As for the rest of the speaker, those values are completely normal in a three way, especially if there are 4ohm drivers. 4ohm=larger caps and smaller inductors, 8ohms smaller caps and larger inductors.

    Trey, I'd recommend 8 pole Speakon connectors between the crossover and speaker cabinet. Don't be fooled by their price, other than pure copper posts, Speakon sound the best, IMO. Plus, it will make things much simpler and neater!

    EDIT, I just googled NL4/2 and realized those are Speakon, they're a nice choice too!
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited February 2013
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    We were thinking either NL8 or a NL2/4 combo depending on the space on the terminal cup. I really like speak on and have been using it regularly. I definitely agree
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,484
    edited February 2013
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    VR3 wrote: »
    As far as resistors go, this is just a preliminary layout but I have had great success with Mundorf Supreme and Mills MRC in the bass network over duelund. It is more about synergy than price sometimes, imo.

    Gotcha. The Duelund does seem more of a transparent, detailed high frequency resistor. I was not thinking about the price, but the transparency and detail from the Duelunds for the reason to use them everywhere.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • blairfrischx
    blairfrischx Posts: 259
    edited February 2013
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    Funny that you just made this thread a couple days ago. Just yesterday I had my Tylers open to check what all was in the crossover so I could upgrade. :lol:
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,802
    edited February 2013
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    Face wrote: »
    In the HF section, it could be a trap/notch filter or impedance compensation... As for the rest of the speaker, those values are completely normal in a three way, especially if there are 4ohm drivers. 4ohm=larger caps and smaller inductors, 8ohms smaller caps and larger inductors.

    Oki-doki, thanks......what do I know anyway. :cool:
    We were thinking either NL8 or a NL2/4

    The NL4 and 8 are built better and have better performance specs than the NL2.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited February 2013
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    F1nut wrote: »
    Oki-doki, thanks......what do I know anyway. :cool:
    Even a 500 year old Vampire like yourself can't know everything. :cheesygrin:
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited February 2013
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    The reason why we would use a a NL2/4 combo is one can not plug into the other which reduces potential error.

    I would like to use a NL8 but I am currently behind and have not had a chance to measure! :D
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,334
    edited February 2013
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    One thing I'd like to stress is that Trey and I are not in a hurry with this project and price has nothing to do with the goal. That being a musical sound and not one that is clinical or your typical "High-Fi" sound. Some things have been chosen because of experience with the synergy with the Seas drivers and other things, we are consulting just about every professional and trusted ear we can think of. It's looking like this will turn into a 2 month project due to the custom and special order items, some of which may take 6 to 8 weeks to be shipped and that's once we order them. We are trying to go balls to the wall but the focus is not money. The focus is the end result as to what hits our ears.

    I'd like to thank Trey, F1nut and others whom you may not know [not from this forum] as well as those who have responded in this thread for your time and your input. Mike, if you don't mind, I'd like to chat with you via the phone in the very near future. This is going to end up as a ground up overhaul/restoration/upgrade. From the cabinet to the plinth to the spikes...you name it, it's gonna look and [hopefully] sound fantastic when we are all done. This one's for you Jesse, I'll finally get around to spiking the plinths.

    Oh, one more thing. We will be adapting the crossover somewhat like Wilson does. After the upgrades are done, I will have a handful of resistors to play around with on the tweeter network. We are not only going to match the resistor to the speakers but to the room and my ears as well. So with that said, a mechanical connection will be made for the resistor in that network so I can easily swap them out to find the perfect match. After I have decided on which resistor value, a more permanent mechanical and electrical connection will be made.

    I guess you have figured this out by now, Ern Dog. Yes, the speakers are mine.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited February 2013
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    I wanted to add to the resistor thing in saying we will be using NICE resistors when voicing them, not like cheap sand cast stuff...

    Just saying!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,387
    edited February 2013
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    VR3 wrote: »
    Its not a matter of "dont wanna use the MR" but its a matter of... 100-200uf in the MR would need its OWN enclosure! :-P

    Thats funny! I used the SA in my 5jr+'s and they were bigger than "D" cell batterys, almost had to put them on a sepporate board .
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,334
    edited March 2013
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    Good afternoon, gentlemen. I have an update for those who are interested. What has started out as a simple crossover upgrade that will be balls to the wall has turned into a full blown restoration/crossover upgrade/custom almost everything. We figure that if we are going to do it....do it right.

    Each external crossover enclosure is expected to weigh close to 40 plus pounds after all is said and done. We are now exploring different options for a custom enclosure as the one we have planned will be too large for the enclosure pictured above. Preliminary indications/measurements are that each side
    will have a 15" wide, 15" deep, 24" tall enclosure. The speaker shells them self will be reconditioned and both the speakers as well as the external crossovers will be put on custom outriggers, so I will lose the plinths they currently reside on. We are currently working on a completely new custom enclosure that will be designed specifically for this system. More on that later...

    One thing that will be completely unique about this particular external crossover/upgrade is that we will actually have both the original crossover as well as the upgraded crossover within the same external crossover unit(s). That way, if anybody wants to hear what they sounded like "somewhat" stock -vs- upgraded, this can be accomplished with a simple swap out of 4 outrageously nice connectors. The differences between the stock speaker and the upgrades just to the speaker itself will be lining the interior with no-rez, outriggers, a diffraction-be-gone pad and the stock crossovers taken out from the enclosure itself and placed into the external enclosure. Added weight may also be included to make up the difference in volume that the removal of the crossover within the current speaker shell will make.

    Because so many custom things need to be made, ordered, measured and whatnot, the original plans for a 1-2 month turnaround have been scrapped. Since this project has taken on a whole new direction, the estimated time for completion is now sitting at a minimum of three months. Good things do come to those who wait.

    More on the actual "crossover" upgrades as we progress. Until then, my lips are sealed.

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,983
    edited March 2013
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    VERY interesting.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited March 2013
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    Everything in this project is going to be big!!!!!!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited March 2013
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    Approximate dimensions of the enclosure (2 enclosures)

    20" depth, 16" wide (17.5) with wood side panels and approximately 20-21 with outriggers, 27-30" tall
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited March 2013
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    We will be providing the following measurements (ground plane, one speaker) - pre and post mod...

    Frequency response with phase and impulse response (on axis)
    Harmonic distortion: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th harmonics plus THD

    And maybe this will become standard practice... :-P

    I should have a prototype wood enclosure in the next two weeks I am hoping
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited March 2013
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    First batch of parts are in!
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited March 2013
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    Delrin shelves are here for the inside of the enclosures, what what??
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 18,334
    edited March 2013
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    Sweet tittie!!!

    Tom
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited March 2013
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    I'd stick with WBT or Speakon binding posts/connection, you can throw those Daytons away.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,041
    edited March 2013
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    Interesting -

    Bad experience?
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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