Harman Kardon Citation setup
EndersShadow
Posts: 17,525
I have done some reading up on these models, but I am liking the looks of the Harman Kardon Citation 11 pre-amp and the Citation 12 deluxe power amp for my vintage setup.
I specifically like the phono input on the Citation 11 and I have heard that this pre-amp is quite good (per stereophile review). It has the speaker wire harness to connect to the Citation 12 and Citation 12 deluxe, but I dont plan to use it.
The Citation 12 deluxe just looks good and is the matching amp. Both units will have the walnut cases and are in good working order.
There is a chance I can acquire these two units, but I wanted to get thoughts from folks on them.
This is for my office setup and they wont be driving anything ridiculous power wise, but I am hoping they would be able to drive some SDA CRS+'s so I need to know if the Citation 12 is a common ground amp..
How much would you spend on them... 200 for both, 300, ect....
P.S. I am aware the Citation 12 is filled with un-obtanium parts so if it goes its not fixable.
I specifically like the phono input on the Citation 11 and I have heard that this pre-amp is quite good (per stereophile review). It has the speaker wire harness to connect to the Citation 12 and Citation 12 deluxe, but I dont plan to use it.
The Citation 12 deluxe just looks good and is the matching amp. Both units will have the walnut cases and are in good working order.
There is a chance I can acquire these two units, but I wanted to get thoughts from folks on them.
This is for my office setup and they wont be driving anything ridiculous power wise, but I am hoping they would be able to drive some SDA CRS+'s so I need to know if the Citation 12 is a common ground amp..
How much would you spend on them... 200 for both, 300, ect....
P.S. I am aware the Citation 12 is filled with un-obtanium parts so if it goes its not fixable.
"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
Post edited by EndersShadow on
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bump"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
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Found this article by Nelson Pass: http://cygnus.ipal.org/mirror/www.passlabs.com/citation.htm He seems to think highly of the design and build quality for the time.
Don't really have any idea what they're worth, but they're old. Have you checked ebay?"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
drumminman wrote: »Found this article by Nelson Pass: http://cygnus.ipal.org/mirror/www.passlabs.com/citation.htm He seems to think highly of the design and build quality for the time.
Don't really have any idea what they're worth, but they're old. Have you checked ebay?
Yeah I stumbled across that and a bunch of other articles (and even a couple threads on this forum).
Ebay prices range from 60-250 or more so its hard to get a idea of pricing."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
I currently have a Citation 11 pre-amp. I also had one back in the day. I consider it a very fine piece of well-designed gear even by today's standards. I use it with an SAE Mark IIIa amp. It set me back a whole $225.00. I know where there's another one in an audio shop near me for about the same price, at least they had it the last time I was in the place. Probably come with a six month warrantee but I can't guarantee that. The Citation has some features that I like. For example, I also have several tube pre's, but the Citation has a five band equalizer, that can be bypassed if you wish. I tend to switch between various speakers and I actually like the ability to use the equalizer if I wish. It also comes in handy at times for different recordings. Some times I switch it off, but its there if you wish to utilize it. Equalizers were the rage when the Citation 11 came out and some folks didn't like them, said it was another thing in the way of the signal but I tend to feel its positive attributes justify its existence in some cases. When I purchased the Citation 11 more recently, I didn't think I'd use the equalizer that much but I find I do. When the Citation 11 came out, it was considered pretty primo stuff. When I got back into two channel a few years back I ran into a guy who had the Citation and some other stuff for sale. I have never regretted purchasing that unit. I wish I had bought some of his other stuff, he had a very collectible REVOX reel to reel, but I thought I would never want to get back into reel to reel. He had just rebuilt everything practically and was not asking much. I called back several weeks later and of course it was gone. I never had a Citation amp, but several of my friends did when they came out, and they liked them quite alot as I recall. They had that method of sending the signal back through the preamp but nobody seems to have that cable anymore. I also have several tube preamps, and the Citation is right up there neck and neck with them. I tend to switch back and forth between the pre's, listening to tubes for awhile then going back to SS for awhile. I use the Citation for both vinyl and CD's, and I think the phono pre on the Citation is top notch, and its built in, unlike the tube pre's I have, which necessitated getting a separate phono pre. All in all, I really like the Citation 11 that I have and for the money I really think its a hell of a bargain. I hope that helps.
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I currently have a Citation 11 pre-amp. I also had one back in the day. I consider it a very fine piece of well-designed gear even by today's standards. I use it with an SAE Mark IIIa amp. It set me back a whole $225.00. I know where there's another one in an audio shop near me for about the same price, at least they had it the last time I was in the place. Probably come with a six month warrantee but I can't guarantee that.
Yeah, the unit I am looking at is less than that but its good to know what you paid. I know someone who really scored and got a Citation 11 pre, standard Citation 12 and a Citation 12 deluxe for 100 recently, but thats not something I expect to see all the time
.The Citation has some features that I like. For example, I also have several tube pre's, but the Citation has a five band equalizer, that can be bypassed if you wish. I tend to switch between various speakers and I actually like the ability to use the equalizer if I wish. It also comes in handy at times for different recordings. Some times I switch it off, but its there if you wish to utilize it. Equalizers were the rage when the Citation 11 came out and some folks didn't like them, said it was another thing in the way of the signal but I tend to feel its positive attributes justify its existence in some cases. When I purchased the Citation 11 more recently, I didn't think I'd use the equalizer that much but I find I do. When the Citation 11 came out, it was considered pretty primo stuff.
I also have several tube preamps, and the Citation is right up there neck and neck with them. I tend to switch back and forth between the pre's, listening to tubes for awhile then going back to SS for awhile. I use the Citation for both vinyl and CD's, and I think the phono pre on the Citation is top notch, and its built in, unlike the tube pre's I have, which necessitated getting a separate phono pre. All in all, I really like the Citation 11 that I have and for the money I really think its a hell of a bargain.
Yeah I like that its got a phono input (which is supposedly REMARKABLY low noise) and another selling feature for me at least is that its got 2 sets of pre-outs. So I could run a tube amp on one set, and a SS on another for either bi-amping, or just to be able to switch things up.
I do also like the built in defeatable equalizer. I might not use it ever, but it looks cool and its there if I wanted to play with things.I never had a Citation amp, but several of my friends did when they came out, and they liked them quite alot as I recall. They had that method of sending the signal back through the preamp but nobody seems to have that cable anymore.
The Citation 11 unit I am looking at has that connector for the amp to the pre, however if you use it, then you CANNOT use banana's or spades, or even thicker gauge wire as you have to use the much smaller wiring bracket on the back of the Citation 11 pre rather than the banana plugs on the Citation amps, so I wouldnt be using that.I hope that helps.
It does. I have some work on the side thats coming in that should allow me to get at least the Citation 11 pre and possibly the Citation Tweleve Deluxe.
I think it would make for a nice vintage looking setup with some decent power, plus like I said it gives me the options of running tubes AND SS amps at the same time, so I think I could bi-amp some speakers using that, or just be able to switch between the two amp types if I wanted, which is enough for me "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
It has two phono inputs, which also comes in handy sometimes. I'll bet you end up using the equalizer more than you may think. If you can pick that up for the price you're talking, and its in good working order, its a no-brainer. You wouldn't be able to touch a separate phono stage anywhere near as good for anywhere near many multiples of dollars. Wish I could speak to the Citation amp but its all hearsay I'm afraid. Good luck. By the way, I believe the Citation 11 pre that I currently have is the later model. They made two variations of the Citation 11 and some people think the later one is preferable for reasons that escape me at the moment. I seem to recall that they looked slightly different on the face plate.
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It has two phono inputs, which also comes in handy sometimes. I'll bet you end up using the equalizer more than you may think. If you can pick that up for the price you're talking, and its in good working order, its a no-brainer. You wouldn't be able to touch a separate phono stage anywhere near as good for anywhere near many multiples of dollars. Wish I could speak to the Citation amp but its all hearsay I'm afraid. Good luck.
Yeah, I doubt the two phono inputs would matter to much to me right now, but like you said it might be nice later on. And I might use the EQ more than I think as well.
No worries about input on the Citation 12, I talked to the guy who picked up that pretty three piece deal and he seems to really like it himself. I just like the thought of having matching pre and amp with the same case. Plus I LOVED the HK 3490 I had briefly in my office.By the way, I believe the Citation 11 pre that I currently have is the later model. They made two variations of the Citation 11 and some people think the later one is preferable for reasons that escape me at the moment. I seem to recall that they looked slightly different on the face plate.
Yeah I see mention of different models in the Stereophile review. I believe some of the differences are noted in that review as well which are:
This is not a new component, but like most others that aspire to very high standards of performance, it has undergone some changes (for the better) since it first went into production.
At that time we found the Citation Eleven to have a subtly grainy overall sound and a slight tendency toward what sounded like front-end stress during crescendos from Magnetic Phono inputs, but even then it was the best-sounding preamp available in or about its price class. The subsequent modifications have served only to widen the gap between the Eleven and its competition....
There are other problems with some Citation Elevens. One is pushbutton switches that don't stay pushed. Another is putt-putt oscillations ("motorboating") when you switch to the unoccupied phono inputs. Both are minor problems, easily remedied at the factory or at any H/K service agency, and had we reported them in an equally fine-sounding product by another company, few of our readers would be put off by it, choosing rather to take their chances (which in fact are good—the problems occur rarely).
So, warts and all, we recommend (with practically no reservations) the Citation Eleven as the first choice of any audio perfectionist who values sound quality above all else but can't Justify or afford an Audio Research SP-3.
I do not know which version the one I am looking at is, but I plan to try and find out.
It seems the differences I see are in the coloration of the EQ section of the faceplate:"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can tell by the coloration of the faceplate. I would think even the earlier version would be damn nice, you have to remember when the reviews of that preamp were written it was being held to a very high standard indeed, it was the golden age of stereophile. Go back and look at magazines from that period and every other page is an ad for a stereo component. I've never actually seen the wood case, its sweet. SAE also made wood cases for their amps, but I don't have one. Good luck.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can tell by the coloration of the faceplate. I would think even the earlier version would be damn nice, you have to remember when the reviews of that preamp were written it was being held to a very high standard indeed, it was the golden age of stereophile. Go back and look at magazines from that period and every other page is an ad for a stereo component. I've never actually seen the wood case, its sweet. SAE also made wood cases for their amps, but I don't have one. Good luck.
Yeah, I know its rare to find the 11's with the wood case, which is one reason I want this particular one. At this point I am fine with either faceplate personally as long as the unit is in a fully functional state. The other reason is that I found the matching 12 Deluxe with the wooden case as well (the standard Citation 12 is pretty ugly IMHO and I wouldnt want it). I believe both cases need a little TLC but would look REALLY nice together, plus gotta love the silver face.
That and I could match some other projects (TT isolation platform), Flexy Rack, etc to it....."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Citation 16A is the way to go, power-amp-wise ;-)
(assuming you're not yet ready for a Citation II, an absolutely outstanding and timeless amplifier)
http://www.harmankardon.com/images/media/CITATION16(SERIESA)_OM_EN.pdf -
mhardy6647 wrote: »Citation 16A is the way to go, power-amp-wise ;-)
(assuming you're not yet ready for a Citation II, an absolutely outstanding and timeless amplifier)
http://www.harmankardon.com/images/media/CITATION16(SERIESA)_OM_EN.pdf
Bumping this thread again just for thoughts...
P.S. the Citation 16 may be awesome power wise, but its pretty darned FUGLY IMHO.
The Citation II looks SEXY but outta not in any kind of price range I can afford "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
Bringing back this thread - I have a buddy who has offered me a citation 11 and 12 (non-deluxe) still in the original boxes in a trade. They both work and are very nice looking. I was thinking of trying them with my 2-channel home system, as I'm looking for a phono preamp anyway and heard the citation 11 was supposed to have a nice build in phono stage. The citation 12 however does not appear to be common ground, I read about 10ohms between the ground lugs. Does anyone know if they can safely be strapped? Also, the amp has a pretty big DC offset at power up, which I've read is normal but I wonder if this could damage my speakers. I'd be trying it with my SDA-2BTLs, not sure if 60 real watts would be enough.2 Channel - Polk SDA-2BTL, Carver TFM-35, Peachtree iDAC, Qobuz streamed via Episode Lynk using bubble UPnP server
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Cant answer your question, but I'd snatch them up as they are sexy pieces of gear.
Did the 11 have the case with it?"....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
No case, but still a sweet looking pre. I feel like my setup is in such a state of flux, not sure if I should order the bugle II phono pre kit or use this HK pre instead. So many decisions to make!2 Channel - Polk SDA-2BTL, Carver TFM-35, Peachtree iDAC, Qobuz streamed via Episode Lynk using bubble UPnP server
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ambiophonics wrote: »No case, but still a sweet looking pre. I feel like my setup is in such a state of flux, not sure if I should order the bugle II phono pre kit or use this HK pre instead. So many decisions to make!
The HK wont come around again, the Bugle can be ordered anytime...
IIRC there is a member here that has both the Bugle & Bugle 2...
think it was @mrbiron
Also ask @trav0810 as he has my old HK 11 and he runs a fair amount of vinyl himself so he might be able to give you an idea of its caliber."....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963) -
I fell in love with the Citation 16a back in the day, but never had one.
They don't come up very often. I've seen the Citation pieces in question
over at Dallas vintage audio. I'm already over my limit for vintage pieces
right now!"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
Ask mhardy6647 about the bugles. He has my bugle v2 and is comparing it to his bugle v1. I actually forgot he still had it.
Shows how much vinyl Ive spun latel . You should also check out the bottlehead reduction kit.Where’s the KABOOM?!?! There’s supposed to be an Earth shattering KABOOM!!! -
Thanks - I'll get a hold of him - looks like the bugle II is out of stock for a bit online, any interest in selling yours when you get it back?
I just finished a phono pre shootout with a buddy comparing the built in phono pre on the Onkyo 707, HK Citation 11 and NAD 7120, the HK won, the Onkyo was harsh but not as bad as I expected, and the NAD was nice and airy, but not quite as nice as the HK. Hoping a dedicated phono pre will be a step up from all these.Ask mhardy6647 about the bugles. He has my bugle v2 and is comparing it to his bugle v1. I actually forgot he still had it.
Shows how much vinyl Ive spun latel . You should also check out the bottlehead reduction kit.
2 Channel - Polk SDA-2BTL, Carver TFM-35, Peachtree iDAC, Qobuz streamed via Episode Lynk using bubble UPnP server -
I really liked the Phono stage on the Citation Eleven. I have ran a few different phone Pre's and the HK was still one of my favorites. I was running a Thorens TD145 with a Shure 97xe MM cart on it. This was paired with a Pilot tube amp. The HK developed a hum that I couldn't get rid of, that is the only reason I don't still have it.The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
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The HK phono section really did sound nice. It had this way of just sucking you into the music. I would probably just use that if I had the space for it, unfortunately I would still need the home theater receiver in the rack to decode audio from the TV, blu-ray, SACD etc. It will be a more elegant solution to have a small dedicated phono pre in my setup.2 Channel - Polk SDA-2BTL, Carver TFM-35, Peachtree iDAC, Qobuz streamed via Episode Lynk using bubble UPnP server
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I agree 2 years later. I just purchased a 2nd Citation 22 to bi amp with the Citation 11. I purchased a 21 preamp to match the 22 but comparing to the 11 I sold the 21 preamp the same day. I also have a Harman Kardon surround for theater. Looking forward to hi amping the unit.
